Thought of the day

[CRAMBAM]

In ST4, Kirk and crew went to the 20th century. If they don't do that, Earth is destroyed. If Earth is destroyed, pretty much all the circumstances that get Nero to change history do not happen.

So when Nero changes history, what happens to Kirk and Crew Prime in the 20th century? Do they vanish?

And if they don't vanish, when they return to Earth with the whales, is it the new universe? The results would be the same.

And if that happens, now what?

[TrekBeatTK]

Hmm... it's a curious question. It all depends on how we view timelines and universes and such. If Nero and Spock inadvertently slipped into a parallel universe, then I'd say nothing happens. If they CREATED a separate universe branching off from the existing one, but the two timelines continue to co-exist in alternate universes, it might be okay.

Trouble is, Trek has done this a number of different ways over the years. Yesterday's Enterprise for example, shows that the future was restored relatively to normal and played out with Tasha dying like she always did, except that a Tasha Secundus from another universe was now also there and had a half-Romulan daughter. The main thrust of the timeline seemed to be intact, just with extra bits.

But your scenario has a certain Back to the Future II logic about it, and from that angle it would seem Kirk Prime's crew might in fact find themselves in the alternate timeline when they returned.

It's hard to say really, but I'm sure if you asked Orci he'd just say that their movie doesn't change Star Trek 4.

Actually, I ultimately have to think that as well because if they DID vanish when the timeline changed then Spock Prime could never go back and save Kirk so the Enterprise never defeats Nero and on and on. The events of Star Trek 4 are part of Spock Prime's past and the timeline has to play out somehow so that he is unaltered.

By the way, love the image on the main page with Kirk doing his Fonzie impression.

-TK

[StarFuryG7]

Aug 2, 2012 15:51:31 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

By the way, love the image on the main page with Kirk doing his Fonzie impression.-TK

"A Piece of the Action".

And Kirk predated Fonzie by the way, at least in real-world terms anyway.

[CRAMBAM]

Well, I don't think the parallel universe theory is valid because in Star Trek, you CAN change history. Despite what Abrams tried to pull off camera, Trek lore does not back them up.

While there ARE parallel universes in Trek, unless specifically mentioned, one has to assume that you are in the same universe, same timeline.

I would argue that yes, Kirk Prime's crew would be in the alternate timeline, BUT if Nero's change prevented them from traveling back in the first place, would they have been there at all?

I don't think Spock Prime as shown in Trek XI would be affected. He was already traveling back in time himself, and the time traveler is never affected by the changes he causes--at least not in Trek. That's a difference between Star Trek and BTTF.

That's why Nero didn't erase himself when he traveled back in time. If Vulcan was destroyed, then the events that got Nero all mad at Spock Prime wouldn't have happened, so he wouldn't travel back in time.

[Mel]

Oh great. Now I have a headache.

[CRAMBAM]

Also, if in Star Trek, and we've seen this many time, the time traveler is not affected, then arguably, during their time in the 20th century, Kirk and crew were simply people of the 20th century, and their presence wouldn't be affected by Nero anymore than any other 20th century person.

[StarFuryG7]

Aug 4, 2012 8:38:55 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Also, if in Star Trek, and we've seen this many time, the time traveler is not affected, then arguably, during their time in the 20th century, Kirk and crew were simply people of the 20th century, and their presence wouldn't be affected by Nero anymore than any other 20th century person.

It's tricky, and the quantum physics involved points to the events in ST09 taking place in an alternate universe anyway, so the prime crew being in the 20th century in ST IV wouldn't be affected if that's indeed the case.

And besides, Sulu wasn't Korean in original Trek prime. He was Japanese.

[StarFuryG7]

Okay, I've got one for you guys, and fortunately it's by no means as mind-bending as Cram's.

I got into a disagreement with a guy last week over "Enterprise". He tried to use the Temporal Cold War as a means of erasing all the continuity disparities between TOS and ENT when I brought up the fact that cloaking technology wasn't supposed to even exist in Archer's era. When I cited the reason as to why he was wrong, he resorted to attacking me personally, which just served to further prove that he had lost the argument.

What was the reason I would have given as to just why he was wrong?

And please, don't try and look for it, because it'll only take the fun out of it for everyone.

[TrekBeatTK]

well the biggest problem I can see is that I think I recall Romulan cloaking devices appearing in the fourth season after the TCW was supposedly over with for Archer. This was something I had a major problem with at the time. I was not of the mind "There are no cloaking devices in the 22nd Century!!", but I didn't think the Romulans should have them. Nor that klingons should have Birds of Prey for that matter, as I liked the idea of them coming out of a Klingon-Romulan alliance. But I was willing to forgive some of these issues via the Temporal Cold War. Especially because I always assumed that Future Guy was a Romulan trying to turn the fate for his people before the Earth-Romulan War. But then season 4 comes along and makes this concerted effort to tie back into TOS continuity (reasonably successful in the Vulcan trilogy), but the later Romulan arc has them with tech that just seems too advanced.

-TK

[CRAMBAM]

Sulu is still Japanese, despite the actor being Korean.

Everything was too advanced in Enterprise--which is one reason I would argue that the entire show is separate from Trek.

[StarFuryG7]

Aug 8, 2012 8:34:47 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

well the biggest problem I can see is that I think I recall Romulan cloaking devices appearing in the fourth season after the TCW was supposedly over with for Archer.

Are you sure about that? Because I have to tell you, offhand I'm drawing a blank about what you're talking about, which just goes to show that the gray matter isn't as sharp as it used to be, because I have to imagine that years ago something like that would have stood out in my mind, but quite frankly, it doesn't, and I thought the fourth season of the show was its best season, which makes my not recalling it that much more annoying. However, if you're right, then not only should the guy I was conversing with should have realized it also, but when he didn't, I should have pointed that out too, beyond the reason I gave as to why he was wrong.

Aug 8, 2012 8:34:47 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

This was something I had a major problem with at the time. I was not of the mind "There are no cloaking devices in the 22nd Century!!", but I didn't think the Romulans should have them.

Well, the Xyrillians had them too early in ENT's first season, and if you go by TOS, and "Balance of Terror" specifically, they shouldn't have had them either. In fact no race encountered by any Earth (or Vulcan too for that matter) ship should have had one, or StarFleet would have known about it, and clearly in the original series they did not, as such invisibility screens were considered only "theoretically possible", and this is one of the things that has always irked me about "Enterprise" as a show, because it didn't pay attention to even basic established canon such as that, which showed that Berman and Braga were just lazy and didn't care about being accurate when taking on a prequel series.

Aug 8, 2012 8:34:47 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

Nor that klingons should have Birds of Prey for that matter, as I liked the idea of them coming out of a Klingon-Romulan alliance.

Well, here is another area in which we disagree then, because that whole Romulan-Klingon alliance BS came about as a result of fan speculation stemming from what occurs in "The Enterprise Incident". The Romulans are seen using Klingon battle cruisers, which is never alluded to in the episode beyond Spock pointing out at the beginning that the Romulans are now using Klingon-designed ships once they show up on the Enterprise sensors. They don't give the reason as to why the Romulans are now using this design though, so some of the doofus fans concluded, "Well, DUH, it must be because the Romluans and Klingons formed an alliance", and the powers that be later adopted that notion and worked it into subsequent Trek, starting in TNG. Meanwhile, the Romulans are there to take Kirk's ship in that episode and make use of its design specs and adopt/adapt its design into their own Fleet, so why wouldn't the Romulans have done precisely the same thing to the Klingons at some prior point? We know that Kirk brings this on intentionally by crossing the Neutral Zone, giving the Romulans a reason to move in and take action (though not necessarily to seize his ship and detain his crew), but there's no reason to think the Klingons wouldn't have ventured passed Romulan boundaries on their own at some point, or that the Romulans wouldn't have taken a Klingon ship under a different set of circumstances. Either way, I never thought the Klingon-Romulan alliance was a good idea, and especially didn't like that it came about as a result of fan brainstorming. It was a lousy idea --the Klingons and Romulans had no reason to like each other, as well as having different philosophies, which would have made them natural born enemies, and that's how things should have remained between them.

Aug 8, 2012 8:34:47 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

But I was willing to forgive some of these issues via the Temporal Cold War. Especially because I always assumed that Future Guy was a Romulan trying to turn the fate for his people before the Earth-Romulan War. But then season 4 comes along and makes this concerted effort to tie back into TOS continuity (reasonably successful in the Vulcan trilogy), but the later Romulan arc has them with tech that just seems too advanced.
-TK

Right, well why would they have had them still using cloaking devices at that point too then, since the goal was to correct the continuity goofs that Berman and Braga were too lazy to know about and then address on their own?

The fella I alluded to tried to put forth a compelling argument about the sphere builders giving advanced technology to races that shouldn't have had it (including the Romulans obviously), and that once the Temporal Cold War was over things would have reverted back to the way they were supposed to be, hence Kirk and Spock in their era not being aware of such technology actually existing, and he thought he was very slick by trying to use that to invalidate my condemnation about the continuity problems that served to make "Enterprise" inconsistent with TOS lore. However, when it didn't work out the way he thought he was going to pull it off, he got personal as I said and decided to get ugly, also proving in the process that he knew he had lost the argument at that point.

I still haven't pointed to the reason I cited, I know, but if anyone else wants to jump in before I do, now would be the time.

CRAM?

[StarFuryG7]

Aug 8, 2012 10:24:20 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Sulu is still Japanese, despite the actor being Korean.

The thing is, Cho looks Korean, Marc. He doesn't look Japanese.

Aug 8, 2012 10:24:20 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Everything was too advanced in Enterprise--which is one reason I would argue that the entire show is separate from Trek.

Agreed, which is also why I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the show had it been deemed an alternate universe, but those two jerks known as Berman and Braga were never going to do that, no matter how much they mucked up the mythology.

[CRAMBAM]

But since you absolutely cannot reconcile Enterprise with the rest of the prime universe, it almost HAS to be an alternate universe.

[TrekBeatTK]

Aug 8, 2012 16:30:12 GMT -5 StarFuryG7 said:

Aug 8, 2012 10:24:20 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Everything was too advanced in Enterprise--which is one reason I would argue that the entire show is separate from Trek.

Agreed, which is also why I wouldn't have as much of a problem with the show had it been deemed an alternate universe, but those two jerks known as Berman and Braga were never going to do that, no matter how much they mucked up the mythology.

I think there was a point back around season 3 that Braga sort of did. He blew off the continuity issues by saying that Enterprise was already set in an alternate timeline; the post-First Contact "restored" timeline. Whether that argument is viable is debatable.

-TK

[TrekBeatTK]

Aug 8, 2012 16:25:19 GMT -5 StarFuryG7 said:

Aug 8, 2012 8:34:47 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

well the biggest problem I can see is that I think I recall Romulan cloaking devices appearing in the fourth season after the TCW was supposedly over with for Archer.

Are you sure about that? Because I have to tell you, offhand I'm drawing a blank about what you're talking about, which just goes to show that the gray matter isn't as sharp as it used to be, because I have to imagine that years ago something like that would have stood out in my mind, but quite frankly, it doesn't, and I thought the fourth season of the show was its best season, which makes my not recalling it that much more annoying.

I may be misremembering, as I haven't watched ENT in a couple years. But I thought it was in the arc with the drone ship; the Babel arc. But maybe it was some other issue I had with the Romulan plot in those episodes. I remember something not sitting right.

Aug 8, 2012 16:25:19 GMT -5 StarFuryG7 said:

Well, the Xyrillians had them too early in ENT's first season, and if you go by TOS, and "Balance of Terror" specifically, they shouldn't have had them either. In fact no race encountered by any Earth (or Vulcan too for that matter) ship should have had one, or StarFleet would have known about it, and clearly in the original series they did not, as such invisibility screens were considered only "theoretically possible", and this is one of the things that has always irked me

A case can definitely be made for what you say. I was willing to fudge things by assuming that a passing one-time encounter with an alien race might not have showed up on everyone's radar, or even that some of these records were lost after devastations of the Earth-Romulan War, but that's a real stretch. But I didn't want to pretend that I was always on a side that I wasn't. I remember those old debates well when they really came to a head after "Minefield" aired, and I was on the other side then. But yeah, ENT did mess with stuff a lot; no phasers is another thing ("Oh but we call them phase pistols!").

Aug 8, 2012 16:25:19 GMT -5 StarFuryG7 said:

Well, here is another area in which we disagree then, because that whole Romulan-Klingon alliance BS came about as a result of fan speculation stemming from what occurs in "The Enterprise Incident".

Again, you make an excellent counter-argument. And it's not one of those things that REALLY bothers me. Maybe alliance is too strong a word. But I liked that "Bird of Prey" quickly pointed to Romulan ships. This goes back to Balance of Terror too. Even the design of the Klingon Bird of Prey subtly seems to recall the old Romulan design as merged with the Klingon battle cruiser. Maybe both the Romulans and Klingons were building ships based on the others' design in order to frame the other race for acts of war? I agree too much of an "alliance" really strains credibility considering the Khitomer Massacre and all.

Aug 8, 2012 16:25:19 GMT -5 StarFuryG7 said:

The fella I alluded to tried to put forth a compelling argument about the sphere builders giving advanced technology to races that shouldn't have had it (including the Romulans obviously), and that once the Temporal Cold War was over things would have reverted back to the way they were supposed to be, hence Kirk and Spock in their era not being aware of such technology actually existing, and he thought he was very slick by trying to use that to invalidate my condemnation about the continuity problems that served to make "Enterprise" inconsistent with TOS lore.

If that argument were correct then... wouldn't Florida be back to normal and Trip's sister not dead after "Storm Front"? And at what point would the sphere builders have given cloaks to the Romulans (since it was months before the Xindi attack) and why?

-TK

[CRAMBAM]

Is there any reason to believe that Enterprise was NOT a TNG holodeck simulation as shown in the finale?

[StarFuryG7]

Aug 8, 2012 19:27:07 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

Again, you make an excellent counter-argument. And it's not one of those things that REALLY bothers me. Maybe alliance is too strong a word. But I liked that "Bird of Prey" quickly pointed to Romulan ships. This goes back to Balance of Terror too. Even the design of the Klingon Bird of Prey subtly seems to recall the old Romulan design as merged with the Klingon battle cruiser. Maybe both the Romulans and Klingons were building ships based on the others' design in order to frame the other race for acts of war? I agree too much of an "alliance" really strains credibility considering the Khitomer Massacre and all. But I didn't think I was going to shut him up right away --I figured I'd have an opportunity to go deeper into it, and that turned out to not be the case.

Well, the fans were the ones who originally described it as an alliance, and that did become established in the mythology along with the fact that both races hated each other nonetheless. But there was a Klingon Bird of Prey in ST III, as you alluded to above, though things were still very vague at that stage whether the two races had formed an alliance or not. TNG codified it later on after it hit the television airwaves. It always just made more sense though that if the Romulans were intent on stealing the Enterprise in "The Enterprise Incident" with the intent of incorporating its design into their own fleet that they would have done the same thing to the Klingons, and the Klingons would have viewed it with shame, so it wouldn't have been something they would have gone out of their way to publicize.

Aug 8, 2012 19:27:07 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

If that argument were correct then... wouldn't Florida be back to normal and Trip's sister not dead after "Storm Front"? And at what point would the sphere builders have given cloaks to the Romulans (since it was months before the Xindi attack) and why?

These are good questions, and when the timeline is being reset at the end of "Storm Front", is it resetting everything from the beginning of the series, since the Suliban and Future Guy were messing around in the show from the outset, or did that just reset the events that occurred strictly within "Storm Front" itself? I haven't seen this show since it went off the air seven years ago, so I'd have to revisit it, though I'm assuming it was the latter. Nevertheless, what I pointed out to the guy I got into the disagreement with over this was that even if the timeline being reset once the war was over were to have affected the Romulans and their cloaking technology as well, Archer and his crew retained all of their memories of events, so somewhere along the way there would have been reports generated about the events in "Minefield" even if that episode had been effectively erased, which I did not believe to be the case anyway nonetheless. So there you have it --that was my counter-argument: they remembered what had occurred, and clearly so did everyone on Earth too for the most part in the aftermath of "Storm Front" because Archer and his crew were greeted as heroes, and those people planetside hadn't forgotten about the Xindi and the War, hence, no, I don't believe that the attack on Florida and the death of Trip's sister and so forth would have been simply erased once the Temporal Cold War ended and Daniels disappeared back into the future. But the fact is that I didn't even have to go that far with the guy I was arguing with because as I said, rather than coming back with some kind of a counterargument, he resorted to attacking me on a personal level instead. I can link you to the exchange if you're at all interested in reading through it, and you can see what I'm talking about for yourself.

[StarFuryG7]

Aug 9, 2012 7:31:27 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Is there any reason to believe that Enterprise was NOT a TNG holodeck simulation as shown in the finale?

Yes. Riker and Troi were reliving history there, so it happened.

[captainbasil]

Aug 9, 2012 16:41:04 GMT -5 StarFuryG7 said:

Aug 9, 2012 7:31:27 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Is there any reason to believe that Enterprise was NOT a TNG holodeck simulation as shown in the finale?

Yes. Riker and Troi were reliving history there, so it happened.

While I have mixed feelings about Enterprise (I liked it when it started), I thought the finale was a slap in the face to everyone involved with the show. I don't think it's canon either because of the changes they made, including involving the Ferengi, but I also don't think Abrams crap is Canon either so what do I know ? ;D

[TrekBeatTK]

Yes, the fact that they retained their memories is a strong indicator that he is wrong. Compare to say "Yesterday's Enterprise" where no one remembered the alternate timeline after it was restored.

-TK

[CRAMBAM]

Reliving history, but couldn't it be possible that whoever programmed the holodeck got things wrong? After all, the events were 200 years in their past, and likely not documented with the same level of detail.

It's not like Riker and Troi were talking about the temporal cold war.

[StarFuryG7]

Aug 10, 2012 6:07:02 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Reliving history, but couldn't it be possible that whoever programmed the holodeck got things wrong?

Not likely because most of the records inputted into the Enterprise-D's computer system would likely have been simple direct transfers of information, that's why the Holodeck would also have such finely detailed records of the design specs of the NX-01 and where various members of the crew were located on the ship during specific missions and so forth. It's all been logged.

[CRAMBAM]

It's still 200 years later, and if the whole thing WAS in the holodeck, we don't know if some programmer took liberties.

It's possible to recreate the Titanic, but I would bet they would get some things wrong.