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Post by StarFuryG7 on Aug 18, 2013 16:22:46 GMT -5
Finished season 3 today. Pretty good overall, though JMS's hubris of writing the whole thing himself definitely leaves some episodes or threads not as strong as they could have been. I did warn you about that regarding him. But he's a control freak, and he figured it was his show and he wanted to leave his mark on it and practically no one else's --at least from a writing standpoint. However, he was also earning $15,000 for every script he turned in on top of his other salaries, so I'm sure that served as a significant incentive for him also. Think about it for a second --if he wrote an entire season of 22 episodes, he'd earn an additional $330,000 for the season just for the writing, to say nothing of what he was bringing in as the Executive Producer of the series, although I have no idea how much his salary was outside of the scripts he wrote. JMS is kind of a pretentious tool who doesn't seem to realize his audience is not only smarter than he gives them credit for, but is generally smarter than he is. He comes off like a college writing professor who has a crappy book published that no one read, but at least he's a "real" writer. And I say this as someone with a degree in creative writing; we can smell our own. Joe just comes across as someone who thinks he's smarter than he is. His commentary tracks are exercises in pedantic sophistry (though I should really avoid them anyway, since he likes to get spoilerific). The commentary for "Z'Ha'Dum" had him name dropping Hitchcock, Chekov, Faulkner, Twain, Robert Frost, and others. It screams, "look at me, I read!" I wouldn't disagree with any of that. I haven't listened to most of the Commentary tracks that he did for the DVD Sets, but I did notice what you're talking about when I watched the Commentary track that he did for "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum", where he also had to cover his tracks with regard to how he botched history as to whether Churchill really did know about the impending attack on Coventry and did nothing. That correction of his and how he sought to justify it left me grinning there for a moment. But he is a pretentious jerkoff, truth be told, and I've also been exposed to him on the Internet, and private message board forums back when he used to post to them frequently when the show was in production, so your observation comes as no surprise at all to me to be perfectly honest. As annoying as he is as a person and writer, it's amazing then that the series works as well as it does. That's also why I've appreciated the show, because it's a unique and distinct universe in its own right, despite its accompanying shortcomings. They set up an interesting environment with a look and tone to it all its own. I also liked that, contrary to the Trek universe, the Babylon 5 universe tended to be much darker. People were constantly at each other's throats and there were sneaky, sinister, ulterior motives pretty much everywhere. In fact, Londo wanting to stay as far away from Centauri Prime, his own homeworld, as possible after the shit hits the fan is a good example of that, as he knew what was coming and what would await him there. The Babylon 5 universe was one that involved a lot of clawing, both to exist as well as survive. Sheridan feeling it necessary to break away from Earth and declare the Station as an Independent port of call and something of a sanctuary also typifies it. Things about the Shadows' plans make no sense to me. I get them playing sides against each other. But I really don't understand at this point what President Clarke's motivations are for anything he does. Clark wanted to be president of the Earth Alliance, pure and simple, that's why he assassinated Santiago. Everything else is the Shadows and the Psi Corp using him to their ends. And of course he surreptitiously goes along with it all, because he's a typical scumbag that covets power. However, ultimately I do think that they could have done more with his character and fleshed everything that was going on with him and Earth better than was done by the time it was all over and everything was said and done. But he's a nefarious dictator basically, and knowing more would only have been for the purpose of further driving that point home of course. We know the Shadows have his ear, and we know there's some conspiracy with Psi Corps, but why? The Psi Corp have a great deal to do with what's going on, even though it may not appear so to you at the moment. Some of their motivations will become clearer to you later on, though for now I would suggest you use your imagination about that and keep a close eye on Bester in particular. In a lot of ways he personifies the Psi Corp and their mode of thinking. And that seems like conflicting interests to me since the Shadows and the telepaths are opposing forces. You would think humanity would be an opposing force of the Shadows, and we are through Sheridan and his people and some of the Earth commanders who are against Clark's actions, but look at how the Shadows have swayed Earth in the direction they wanted them to move. I think it's fair to refer to them as sinister, nefarious, and even evil, but look at how some people are actually willing to be manipulated by them and to go along with their plans. Look at Morden. I don't know if he was altered like Anna Sheridan --that is never specifically indicated, although I suspect not, as there was a comment made by one of the characters somewhere along the line, perhaps and probably Delenn in "In the Shadow of Z'ha'dum" --you'll have to refresh my memory here, although I believe I'm correct-- in which she tells Sheridan that those people aboard the Icarus who were willing to work with the Shadows were left untouched by them, whereas those who wouldn't were modified and changed to suit their agenda. Anna was one such unlucky victim, and you see that the Shadows follow Modern around everywhere, although I do believe he was one of their willing accomplices from the beginning. We can't really say that with absolute certainty though, but I think the odds are very good that he was indeed a willing accomplice of theirs. So the move to suddenly declare martial law felt like it came out of nowhere, when it could have been structured to arise more organically. Fair enough I suppose, but you also have to remember that as viewers, we're left restricted mostly to the Babylon 5 Station, pretty much just like the characters. So they're seeing things happen from a distance, and naturally, they're not going to see or know about everything that happens behind the scenes because that's how the Shadows operate, like puppeteers pulling the strings on the marionettes they select to do their bidding. Londo is a good example of this because look at how they have manipulated him through Modern while staying totally out of view from him. Similarly with the rushed escalation (and then quick disposal) of the Night Watch. It would have been far more believable for them to step up their actions AFTER acts of supposed sedition started, rather than seeking them out from the start. Moves like this are much more effective when the public can see a reason for it and it arises as reaction. That's why the Patriot Act went into effect and why we have a war on terror. But here Joe structured the story so that Night Watch are essentially the instigators, and that's just foolish. Despite the way this was all handled, it's interesting to see B5 go independent. And I like the new outfits. I just wish it had been better plotted to get to that point. Nightwatch are bullies, and while I see your point, your point of view on the matter isn't necessarily the only way a move toward dictatorship might happen. Look, for instance, at how the current administration operates by targeting tax exempt conservative groups using the IRS in order to silence them and keep them from getting their message out, and how any criticism of the sitting occupant in the Oval office is deemed to be racist. So while I understand your point, and may even agree with it to some extent, I think we also have a real-world case in point that we can look at as an example without even having to look back at history so as to examine the natural evolution of such a twisted process successfully taking root and manifesting itself within a society. I could kind of do without the notion of the Shadow vessels using live pilots. I grow weary of the "living ships" thing on TV, though I guess at the time it wasn't as prevalent. where do they get the bodies to run these vessels? Also, no one seems to have any qualms about blowing up Shadow ships knowing there are people inside them. I guess it's another contrast to the Vorlon vessels. Here I'm not in agreement with any of your observations frankly, although from your standpoint, with just having some of these explanations spelled out for you, I can't exactly fault you for your reaction and the questions you raise in relation to it all either. Where do they get the pilots? What about a good portion of the still missing crew from aboard the Icarus, for instance? What is it about the Shadows which gives you any indication that they care about people and are interested in them based on their own individuality? As for human beings being reluctant to kill people who are piloting Shadow death ships, which is what they are...why should they care about the one person who happens to be piloting one of those ships when they can potentially kill hundreds or thousands if not stopped? And like Anna Sheridan, they've been changed into something they weren't previously and their individuality as people lost. Why do you think Sheridan gives up on his wife and allows for what happens to her ultimately as a result of his own actions? It's because he knows that she's not really a person anymore. The Shadows killed her, and what he sees in front of him when looking at her is some kind of zombie that's no longer truly a human being thanks to them. The revelation of there having been a ship found on Mars and how that's all been covered up annoyed me a bit, though I guess it serves as a reason for the Icarus to go to Z'Ha'Dum. And suggests that Clark is somehow involved with the Shadows and all. But it was one extra revelation I'm not sure was needed. I disagree. I found that scene creepy, and it helped illuminate the viewers as to one of the darker, uglier secrets underneath it all. A person, or what was once a person, is put into that ship, not prepared properly by the Shadows, and look at what happens. I'm really not sure why such a scene should be excluded because of what it clearly reveals on a number of different levels, not even just with respect to how that ship was being piloted and the implications of that, but also because it does demonstrate that the Earth Alliance has been touched and infected by the Shadows and their influence. Look at what they're willing to do --put another human being into that ship, even though they may not have realized the true implications of their actions. However, they probably did have some indications about what it could well mean. They just wanted to see if they could fly it though. Passing Through Gethsemane -- My favorite of the season. A bit of a silly notion with monks on the station, but pretty well executed beyond that. Poor Brad Dourif really is type-cast as the crazy, haunted serial killer, isn't he? It's like a cross between Voyager's "Meld" and X-Files' "Beyond the Sea". Yeah, except that this episode came before Voyager's "Meld", and I think it's worth pointing that out here, because it wasn't that Joe was copying off of the Voyager team, because if anything, it was certainly the other way around, and that's precisely how I viewed it at the time. At any rate, I'm glad that you also liked this episode as much as you did because it is indeed one of my favorites as well, and I think it serves as a pretty good example of Joe at his best. There was a lot of passion and intensity in this episode, as well as good science fiction writing that really made you sit back and think. What if we could indeed Mindwipe a vicious killer --a serial killer of all things ...what are the implications or that? Would it really be a fair and adequate punishment? And in spite of all said killer has done, given all of his crimes, would it really be fair to the victims to release him out in the public so as to lead a normal, even penitent life, even though his personality has been effectively erased and replaced by one that's entirely different? ( "How can I confess my sins, Theo, if I don't even know what they are?") This episode raised so many good questions along those lines, and it is the epitome of good, even great science fiction, because that is what the goal of science fiction really is when you get right down to it: to be provocative and to raise provocative questions and issues so as to really get you thinking. Also, and in spite of all that, it is not dismissive or even mocking toward religion, especially Christianity, which is the religion at issue specifically here. And this coming from a typical liberal Hollywood writer no less, which is exactly what Joe is. He doesn't even try to hide his Marxist thinking in a variety of places where given the chance to expound on it, but religion, unlike how the left treats it in this country, was treated with respect in this episode, and I think Joe deserves credit for that, all of his other shortcomings as a writer and ideologically speaking aside. Severed Dreams -- Good, if not as good as it should have been. Again, the story structure is all wrong and leaves me just confused about Clark's ultimate goals here. JMS rights politics like someone who doesn't understand them. Why does Clark do these things? "Because he's bad!" Yeah, but why is he bad? what is he hoping to gain? "...He's bad!" Okay, but WHY is he bad? "...he... the Shadows are behind it, and they're BAD!" Actually, I think "Severed Dreams" is a good example of an episode that does pretty much everything right. It's fast-moving right from the start and maintains its action throughout. It also shows you what's really at stake in this growing conflict, as Sheridan deems it necessary to break away from Earth and declare independence. For an Earth Force officer, this is about as extreme as it gets. As for Clark and what drives him, I believe I've already addressed that, but clearly he and his minions don't like what's going on on the Babylon 5 Station and they begin to view Sheridan as a serious threat to them and their ambitions and goals. I also love an episode that is coming up for you called "The Illusion of Truth", and I found what Joe does there to be absolutely hilarious for a number of different reasons. I remember there being a poll somewhere late in that next season where people were asked to rate their favorite episode of the season, and I ranked that one at the top even though it had a much lower showing in the final results and was not a favorite of most people who had participated in that poll, so I also feel that it's underrated because of that, but just pay close attention to that one when you get around to it. There's a terrible opening scene that could have been better were it not for Jeff Conaway's atrocious acting in the teaser, God rest his soul, so you'll have to put that aside, but other than that, the episode holds together quite well otherwise, so keep an eye out for it, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did once you reach it. A Late Delivery From Avalon -- ...and then this happened. Just as things were getting good, Michael York shows up claiming to be King Arthur. No. Just no. Not as bad as Jack the Ripper showing up (and the fact they even entertained that the same thing might have happened made me nervous). It plays out okay ultimately, but what was the point, really? The teaser was like something straight out of Lost in Space. Was Joe just giving himself a writing exercise; set up a silly-style teaser and try to spin a decent story out of it? TOS rarely did anthing on this level. I think the only real instance would be Abe Lincoln showing up in "The Savage Curtain". Yeah, I've never been a fan of that episode either, although for what it's worth, and I may be wrong, but I suspected Joe did that for the people in Britain who watched the show, as it had a strong following there. It performed very well in that country airing in first-run, so I felt he did the episode in part so as to throw them a bone over there. And ultimately, while I guess it is comparable to "Comes the Inquisitor", I actually prefer that earlier episode nonetheless. If I had to choose between which one I'd rather watch, I'd pick that one instead, for what it's worth. Ship of Tears -- more Walter Koenig, and more about the telepath thing. Bester's character is rounded out more, which is nice. I really liked that episode. It also shows the more human side of Bester finally, who's a man certainly lacking in humanity. It too is one of my favorites for that season. Interludes and Examinations -- First let's talk about Franklin's addiction. Nicely handled over two seasons, better than when other series have made leads into drug addicts (I'm looking at you, ENT!). Here the writing is pretty perfectly subdued, and Richard Biggs is great in this episode. Never once did he go over the top or get hammy. I always saw him as believably erratic. There's a fine line between that and this: My only problem with it all is that Franklin behaves as if he didn't realize his addiction, when back in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark" he confessed to Delenn that "I think I have a problem". Maybe this can be explained, but it strikes me as another example of Joe's sloppy writing. It's unfortunate, because the one line hurt the rather wonderful writing in this episode. I realize that his actions in that regard may seem contradictory to you, but an addicts actions along such lines are often conflicting and contradictory, and Franklin is a doctor after all, so it would only make sense that upon sitting back and being downright honest with himself for a moment, whenever that moment happens to be, that he would acknowledge and perhaps even openly admit that he has a serious problem. After all, he's the one who keeps shooting himself up with stims, and he knows better than anyone what the guidelines for stim use is, and where it either borders on or becomes downright abuse of the drug. Franklin is also a realist, which is why Garibaldi and Sheridan sometimes turn to him for advice. He's almost like Leonard McCoy in a way in that sense, although more reasoned and less emotional. Also, gotta give them props; I never expected them to kill Kosh. That's the first genuine surprise I've had with this series (beyond "so Vorlons are just angel beings? lame."), and I liked it. Very nicely done --a great sequence, powerfully handled I thought. War Without End -- so nice to see Sinclair again and close out his story. It does make me wonder what Joe's original plan was for this to play out back before there was a Sheridan and stuff. These episodes sometimes get confusing where I'm not sure what time I'm in or who is who and where (like when they are in space suits). And I'm not sure I ever felt any real stakes; I always expected them to succeed. Simple temporal causality loop. So JMS has to create a false threat with the Ivanova distress call from the "possible future". It's trying to be Back to the Future, but makes no sense. If B4 always goes back in time, then this never happens and they shouldn't be picking it up. Of course, it could be that this is a further future of later events (we do see the exploding station shots that we saw in "Signs and Portents"), and knowing how clever Joe thinks he is, this wouldn't surprise me. Also, Ivanova refers to it as "Earth Alliance station Babylon 5", but right now they have seceded. Anyway, the episodes are reasonably effective, despite the fact that characters cross space as well as time inexplicably (Sheridan goes from random space in Sector 14 to being on Centauri Prime), and the almost-too-cute revelation that it was a time traveling B4 that saved the day 1000 years ago. I had very mixed feelings about that two-parter, although I was happy to see Sinclair again, but Michael O'Hare's acting in it, God rest his soul also, seemed very detached from both the character and the show compared to how he performed during season one. I recall asking Joe specifically about that back in the 90s and he told me that Michael had approached him and said he wanted to play the character that way, that he believed that that was how Sinclair would have evolved under such circumstances. At the time I thought O'Hare had intentionally turned in a dry and passionless performance because he had been replaced as the show's lead, and that was how he dealt with it despite wanting to collect another paycheck or two, but now, in retrospect, I wonder if it was because of his condition and/or what medication may have been prescribed for him at that time. Walkabout -- boy, stims withdrawal sure is easy, huh? Franklin's little walkabout got overplayed over the next few episodes, and part of me thinks it's kind of silly since the station's only so long and he's probably just walking back and forth through different levels. Well, the Station is five miles long, and consider how many levels there are to it, so no, I don't think he was simply walking back and forth on it. There was plenty of ground for him to cover without having to retrace his steps at all, although they did milk that particular thread more than I cared to be bothered with as well. Grey 17 is Missing -- a great idea with the missing level mystery that unfortunately doesn't pay off like it should. Great to see Robert Englund. Joe actually issued a public apology to the audience for that episode, so he's by no means a fan of it himself. I believe he looked at it and was embarrassed by it --LOL ...a writer being embarrassed by his own work ...pretty damn funny. And the Rock Cried Out, No Hiding Place -- when the monks showed up, I wondered to myself why it's always obvious Catholic monastic types when religious people appear in stuff, and never other modern Christian protestant types. So it was nice to see a Baptist pastor here (I'll credit B5 with being one of the only shows to have actual religions depicted). Unfortunately, the way he and Brother Theo interact was all wrong. He was just mean to him. In my experience, ministers of different faiths are much more respectful of each other as people and disagree on matters of doctrine. They don't get so petty as this. I'm sure Joe thought he was being satirical or something, but it was trite and off. I don't know, I recall having found it a little amusing. Theo didn't really hate or despise the Baptist pastor, but there was a grudging attitude in how he dealt with him. But I believe the two of them part on more friendly terms, although I don't remember specifically since it's been so long since I've seen that episode. Meanwhile, Londo's trap for Refa is brilliant and it was good to see some hints of the old Londo here. Yes, he set him up quite well, and Refa surely deserved what happens to him, even though Londo was wrong about him and what motivated him to take him out. But again, that's the Shadows for you and how they operate. They're downright devious. Z'Ha'Dum -- Melissa Gilbert is fine, but I'm sorry, just because she's Bruce's actual wife is no reason to change actress when we've already seen a different woman as Anne Sheridan. Joe seemingly had intentions to replace the actress who played Sheridan's wife in that earlier scene on his monitor and replace her with Melissa. I remember his having spoken about having not gotten around to doing it, as though he intended to at some point, but then it never happened, although I don't know why. I suspect he never could find a way to justify the expense, but he should have gotten her to shoot that scene for scale when he signed her on to appear in those episodes where we see her. He wasn't thinking obviously, because that's what I would have done. "Well, I'm reluctant to go along with this, Bruce, because we already had an actress appear as your wife, but if Melissa really wants to do this, then this is how I can see to perhaps agreeing to it." That way he would have gotten what he wanted, and Bruce and Melissa would have gotten what they wanted as well. It wouldn't have changed things for people who had seen the original actress who had appeared as his wife on TV, the same chick who appeared as Tasha's supposed sister on TNG, but it would have fixed the problem for subsequent strip airings and for the DVD Sets of the series. But I agree with you --that should not have been done, especially if Joe didn't really intend to fix and correct the problem later in that way. And at present I'm inclined to think Sheridan is not dead, but will eventually die on Z'Ha'Dum later. If time is indeed fixed, then the future with Centauri Prime all ruined cannot be altered. we'll see I guess.  Yes, I know the answers to those questions, but of course, I'm not saying a word. Suffer in anticipation. LMAO. |
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Aug 19, 2013 16:19:36 GMT -5
Fair enough I suppose, but you also have to remember that as viewers, we're left restricted mostly to the Babylon 5 Station, pretty much just like the characters. So they're seeing things happen from a distance, and naturally, they're not going to see or know about everything that happens behind the scenes because that's how the Shadows operate, like puppeteers pulling the strings on the marionettes they select to do their bidding. Londo is a good example of this because look at how they have manipulated him through Modern while staying totally out of view from him. There's a level at which I like that, but I just feel like it could have been handled a little differently. Especially after the Churchillian alliance with the Centauri, it might have been interesting for Earth to be in that position with all the other alien races now turning on Earthforce because of it. Then Babylon 5, because of Sheridan's pact with G'Kar to have Narn security, establishes itself strongly at odds with Earth, and this creates conflict with Clark who then wages war on the station. Some of that comes through, but I think it's more interesting than a random civil war because Clark randomly declared civil war. ...Also, I think it would have made better strategic sense on the Shadows' part not to decimate EarthForce this early in the war. Where do they get the pilots? What about a good portion of the still missing crew from aboard the Icarus, for instance? What is it about the Shadows which gives you any indication that they care about people and are interested in them based on their own individuality? As for human beings being reluctant to kill people who are piloting Shadow death ships, which is what they are...why should they care about the one person who happens to be piloting one of those ships when they can potentially kill hundreds or thousands if not stopped? And like Anna Sheridan, they've been changed into something they weren't previously and their individuality as people lost. Why do you think Sheridan gives up on his wife and allows for what happens to her ultimately as a result of his own actions? It's because he knows that she's not really a person anymore. The Shadows killed her, and what he sees in front of him when looking at her is some kind of zombie that's no longer truly a human being thanks to them. I get that, I just wonder if maybe one person asking the question would have been nice. That's sort of how they dealt with it in The Matrix, with a similar idea. Are all the ship-runners human, or do the Shadows use other species? Do they use any of their own? It seems odd to develop a tech that requires enslaving other races first. At any rate, I'm glad that you also liked this episode as much as you did because it is indeed one of my favorites as well, and I think it serves as a pretty good example of Joe at his best. There was a lot of passion and intensity in this episode, as well as good science fiction writing that really made you sit back and think. What if we could indeed Mindwipe a vicious killer --a serial killer of all things ...what are the implications or that? Would it really be a fair and adequate punishment? And in spite of all said killer has done, given all of his crimes, would it really be fair to the victims to release him out in the public so as to lead a normal, even penitent life, even though his personality has been effectively erased and replaced by one that's entirely different? ( "How can I confess my sins, Theo, if I don't even know what they are?") This episode raised so many good questions along those lines, and it is the epitome of good, even great science fiction, because that is what the goal of science fiction really is when you get right down to it: to be provocative and to raise provocative questions and issues so as to really get you thinking. Also, and in spite of all that, it is not dismissive or even mocking toward religion, especially Christianity, which is the religion at issue specifically here. And this coming from a typical liberal Hollywood writer no less, which is exactly what Joe is. He doesn't even try to hide his Marxist thinking in a variety of places where given the chance to expound on it, but religion, unlike how the left treats it in this country, was treated with respect in this episode, and I think Joe deserves credit for that, all of his other shortcomings as a writer and ideologically speaking aside. Totally agreed. I found this just a fantastic piece of science fiction television. Actually, I think "Severed Dreams" is a good example of an episode that does pretty much everything right. It's fast-moving right from the start and maintains its action throughout. It also shows you what's really at stake in this growing conflict, as Sheridan deems it necessary to break away from Earth and declare independence. For an Earth Force officer, this is about as extreme as it gets. I tried to sit down and watch it again on its own after I posted. It's a good episode, and I think the end is great. It's just that all the set-up behind it feels too fast to me. But part of that also comes from watching the episodes one after the other. It probably played better on its own that first week it aired. I don't mean to say it's not good; just from the way people talk about it I expected something more. It wasn't as good as "Passing Through Gethsemane" for me. But better than the episode before it. Very nicely done --a great sequence, powerfully handled I thought. Yes. And then in the next episode or so when Lyta arrives and she's devastated; all well done. Moments like this are making the show worth watching, and that's maybe why "Severed Dreams" didn't impact me as strongly. I got more from some of these other episodes. Well, the Station is five miles long, and consider how many levels there are to it, so no, I don't think he was simply walking back and forth on it. There was plenty of ground for him to cover without having to retrace his steps at all, although they did milk that particular thread more than I cared to be bothered with as well. But five miles isn't that long. On foot, I could do that in 2 hours tops. He seems to spend most of his time Down Below, and it's unlikely he's traversing areas for aliens which would require him to wear a mask. He's avoiding certain other areas I'm sure, so he's not walking the whole station. Even so, he's got to be winding back and forth level to level. Let's say he just stays in the Gray sector. That's 29 levels. Even if he stops for sleep and meals and visits to nightclubs, let's say he walks 6 hours a day. That's like 3 levels he could cover right there each day, so he could cover the entire gray sector in two weeks. He was gone a long time; I don't remember the exact dates, but at least a few weeks. So I just wonder how much of his "walkabout" he was actually walking. These are just the random things I think about. I don't know, I recall having found it a little amusing. Theo didn't really hate or despise the Baptist pastor, but there was a grudging attitude in how he dealt with him. Theo did just put up with it. But the Baptist pastor just seemed to revel in picking on Theo. I've seen a lot of interaction between interfaith clergy and I don't usually see behavior like that. Yes, I know the answers to those questions, but of course, I'm not saying a word. Suffer in anticipation. LMAO. Season 4 is on its way, so I won't be suffering long. :{)] -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Aug 30, 2013 18:34:03 GMT -5
Babylon 5 - In the Beginning now available on YouTube in its entirety.
I'm going to do something I wouldn't ordinarily do and recommend the Babylon 5 prequel "In the Beginning" to Marc to watch at his leisure. I noticed last night, entirely by chance, that someone put it up on YouTube in its entirety.
"In the Beginning" was made and aired after the show's fourth season. It was intended to be an introduction for new viewers when the show made the jump from syndication to Basic Cable station TNT. The executives there asked J. Michael Straczynski to provide them with a movie for the uninitiated, and he agreed. The reason I would recommend that most people wait to watch it though is because it also contains some Spoilers for the series, and you'd be watching this movie before they unfold for you in their own good time. I guess JMS felt he couldn't really lay the groundwork without revealing some of those secrets, and for those of us who had watched the show for four prior seasons by the time this movie had been produced and aired, we were already well aware of much of this backstory.
Nevertheless, given that I suspect CRAM will never get to this show otherwise, I would say go ahead and watch and see if whether you feel it would be to your liking and interest or not. What the hell. (TK, you might as well hold off being that you're moving into season four at this stage.)
I haven't checked this out yet, but I suspect it can also be accessed via the YouTube app on one's Blu-ray Player, which means that you should be able to watch it on your TV if you're so inclined, which is also how I would recommend watching it if you're able.
Here's the Link, and naturally, if you're going to watch it via your Blu-ray Player on your flatscreen, you should be able to pull this entire movie up by typing in the title.
Babylon 5 - In the Beginning
Hmmm, only 360p resolution I see. That makes me wonder how it'll look on my TV. I'll get back to you guys later about that I guess.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Aug 30, 2013 23:38:19 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that. If I hadn't just received my copy from the library, I'd have considered just watching it on YouTube.
I'm now more than halfway through season 4 and I'll post more on it at the end. I'm finally starting to get into it more as the stories really propel forward (despite a few weird hiccups in the plotting structure). I still disagree with how much they keep Clark offscreen. Considering how much we were privy to the political workings on Centauri Prime, and among the Minbari, it seems like intentional obfuscation to play Earth politics so strongly in the shadows (pun intended). Consider, at this point we've been on Minbar, we've been on Narn, we've been on Centauri Prime, we've even been on Mars, but we've never even had a single scene on Earth. I just think that's a misstep. But hey, I didn't write the thing.
I watched Thirdspace where it occurred chronologically. May comment more on that later. Not bad. Throwaway story, but fine enough.
So I will be watching In the Beginning fairly soon. Someone on I think IMDb suggested viewing it before "Endgame", so I may do that.
So I'll be saying more when I finish. ...what is Garibaldi's obsession with Daffy Duck? :{)]
-TK
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Aug 31, 2013 18:04:08 GMT -5
Thanks for posting that. If I hadn't just received my copy from the library, I'd have considered just watching it on YouTube. No, don't --I withdraw my recommendation from yesterday evening. I accessed it through my Blu-ray Player very late last night and it looked like garbage on my TV. I have no idea why it is that whomever decided to put it up on YouTube would have chosen to do so at a measly 360p resolution. It truly looks like crap. I'm now more than halfway through season 4 and I'll post more on it at the end. I'm finally starting to get into it more as the stories really propel forward (despite a few weird hiccups in the plotting structure). I still disagree with how much they keep Clark offscreen. Considering how much we were privy to the political workings on Centauri Prime, and among the Minbari, it seems like intentional obfuscation to play Earth politics so strongly in the shadows (pun intended). Consider, at this point we've been on Minbar, we've been on Narn, we've been on Centauri Prime, we've even been on Mars, but we've never even had a single scene on Earth. I just think that's a misstep. But hey, I didn't write the thing. It's a legitimate complaint, and it didn't thrill me all that much either, although if it makes you feel any better, there will be some scenes on Earth, though later on. I watched Thirdspace where it occurred chronologically. May comment more on that later. Not bad. Throwaway story, but fine enough. Interesting, as I was very disappointed in "Thirdspace". In fact, I wrote a review of it so critical that Joe chimed in threatening to stop writing, and I'm not kidding. He was clearly offended upon having read my review, although God knows if I still have that correspondence buried away somewhere. It happened over on CompuServe, where he was very active at the time. But I had a lot of problems with "Thirdspace"; I found a few of the scenes downright embarrassing, and the motivations of the Vorlons made no sense. So I will be watching In the Beginning fairly soon. Someone on I think IMDb suggested viewing it before "Endgame", so I may do that. Hmmm ...what was his rationale for you're looking at it there rather than when you're done looking at season 4? I'm missing something here, though offhand, I'm not sure what. So I'll be saying more when I finish. ...what is Garibaldi's obsession with Daffy Duck? :{)] -TK LOL ...it's not hard to figure out really. WB. Have you seen Bugs Bunny yet? Oh, and by the way ...what are your feelings on Bester and how he's matured over the course of the show? What do you think of Koenig in the role? |
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Aug 31, 2013 20:26:28 GMT -5
Interesting, as I was very disappointed in "Thirdspace". In fact, I wrote a review of it so critical that Joe chimed in threatening to stop writing, and I'm not kidding. He was clearly offended upon having read my review, although God knows if I still have that correspondence buried away somewhere. It happened over on CompuServe, where he was very active at the time. But I had a lot of problems with "Thirdspace"; I found a few of the scenes downright embarrassing, and the motivations of the Vorlons made no sense. I thought it was passable, though inconsequential. You make a fair point about Vorlon motivations. I was more bothered by the actions of the least professional xeno-archaeologist in the world. I liked that it tried to do something different, and showcased Lyta a bit, but it is a lot of set-up that doesn't much pay off. I didn't like hate it, though I do come away thinking, "...that was it?" You could skip it and not miss anything. I'd be very curious to read that review! Hmmm ...what was his rationale for you're looking at it there rather than when you're done looking at season 4? I'm missing something here, though offhand, I'm not sure what. I don't remember. I think there were spoilers in his post that I didn't read. But I'll be able to explain when I've seen it. Anyway, I'm at that point now, so we'll see what I do. So I'll be saying more when I finish. ...what is Garibaldi's obsession with Daffy Duck? :{)] -TK LOL ...it's not hard to figure out really. WB. Have you seen Bugs Bunny yet? That's what I figured when I first saw it, and there's something to be said for referencing 20th Century culture if you can. But after the poster, there's some like toothbrush holder or something in his bathroom, AND then he was actually watching a Daffy cartoon in another episode. Trying to reconcile what in Garibaldi's personality gravitates to Daffy Duck. You've got to be committed to something to hang it over your bed like that. Maybe that's part of why he can't keep a girlfriend; who wants to sleep under Daffy Duck? (though I should talk -- I've got the Enterprise D over mine) I don't recall seeing Bugs but I may not have been paying attention. Oh, and by the way ...what are your feelings on Bester and how he's matured over the course of the show? What do you think of Koenig in the role? I like what they are doing with Bester. He could very easily have just become that annoying mustache-twirling villain. But I think they do a good job of keeping him untrustworthy but sympathetic who has his reasons that are totally relatable, if not always strictly "good". I think Koenig is great. After his first appearance back in season one I thought he was fine, but I think he succeeds in keeping the character grounded as the show's gone on. Sometimes Bester reminds me of those few moments of "Captain Chekov" in The Final Frontier. Koenig's got a mean poker face. -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Sept 2, 2013 16:11:45 GMT -5
I thought it was passable, though inconsequential. You make a fair point about Vorlon motivations. I was more bothered by the actions of the least professional xeno-archaeologist in the world. I liked that it tried to do something different, and showcased Lyta a bit, but it is a lot of set-up that doesn't much pay off. I didn't like hate it, though I do come away thinking, "...that was it?" You could skip it and not miss anything. I'd be very curious to read that review!
As for the actions of the least professional xeno-archaeologist in the world, evidently she was being affected by the artifact, as were so many other people aboard the Station. Unless you're referring to something else that I'm failing to take into account being that it's been so darn long since I've seen that movie (I haven't watched it again since it first aired on TNT actually). |
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Post by CRAMBAM on Sept 3, 2013 6:57:25 GMT -5
I will try very hard to remember to watch this. It's hard to get into new stuff while finishing up old stuff. But I'm almost done with Alias, and I'm trying to rewatch all 44 episodes of Once Upon A Time before 9/29.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Sept 3, 2013 16:53:03 GMT -5
I will try very hard to remember to watch this. It's hard to get into new stuff while finishing up old stuff. But I'm almost done with Alias, and I'm trying to rewatch all 44 episodes of Once Upon A Time before 9/29. It is hard. That's why it took me so long to finish Babylon 5; I was doing Fringe and Breaking Bad. I just watched In the Beginning, and it is a good stand-alone movie and a nice intro to the series. And I've been fairly critical of the series, but there have been some stand out episodes. Are they really premiering Once Upon a Time in September? don't they have Wonderland starting in October? -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Sept 4, 2013 12:17:58 GMT -5
I just watched In the Beginning, and it is a good stand-alone movie and a nice intro to the series. I like "In the Beginning". It's my favorite of the four movies they did, excluding the series pilot "The Gathering". There are things that don't thrill me in it, such as the fact that Sheridan, Franklin and G'Kar all knew each other long before they were assigned to the Babylon 5 space station when there was absolutely nothing in the series previously to indicate that as having been the case, but it's otherwise enjoyable for the most part and lends itself to rewatchability. The only other movie that's decent which had real potential is "A Call to Arms", but it was almost entirely ruined by Evan Chen's abysmal sleep-Inducing musical score. Joe really blew it when he didn't stick with Christopher Franke for that outing too. |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Sept 4, 2013 18:33:37 GMT -5
Over at Blastr:Straczynski urges Babylon 5 fans to campaign for the show's returnBy Trent Moore Wed, 09/04/2013 - 11:31am  Tired of Babylon 5 being an obscure pop culture reference? Want the show back on the air? Well, creator J. Michael Straczynski has some advice for you.
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Post by captainbasil on Sept 7, 2013 7:08:23 GMT -5
B5 was on Netflix for a long time, and that's the only hope of introducing it to new viewers. I doubt any cable channel would run it. I liked the Babylon 5 : The Lost Tales DVD that came out, but it was so cheaply made it was not that well received and WB wouldn't up the budget for another one so I think JS canned it. It really is a shame that so many science fiction fans have never seen the show. It's not a "Cult Classic" , it's one of the best SF TV series ever made..Period.  |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Sept 7, 2013 12:11:49 GMT -5
B5 was on Netflix for a long time, and that's the only hope of introducing it to new viewers. I doubt any cable channel would run it. I liked the Babylon 5 : The Lost Tales DVD that came out, but it was so cheaply made it was not that well received and WB wouldn't up the budget for another one so I think JS canned it.
Joe did that DVD as an experiment. It was originally intended to be a trilogy with the possibility of more along the same lines later, but it didn't go over well because of how it was produced and I guess sales being less than they had hoped for when they set out to produce it. It was produced for about a quarter of the budget that was spent to make the two "Stargate" movies that the plug was then pulled on just a year later because the bottom had fallen out of the DVD market, according to that series' producers, so Joe really was pushing against the tide when he made "The Lost Tales", although to what extent he and the execs at WB may not truly have known back at that time. |
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Sept 13, 2013 7:02:31 GMT -5
Okay, this is late in coming, but I've been busy. Time to discuss B5 season 4.
Stephen Furst lost some weight! Good for him, though since the season picks up just a week after last season, I guess the stress of the job is really getting to Vir...
The season started a bit slow with the whole "Sheridan is dead" thing, which I could have done without. I'd have loved it if he didn't die but did return to Z'Ha'Dum later and die then. Instead we get typical "resurrection" stuff where it's played coy about whether he was ever really dead or only "mostly dead", with the limbo state where a wise old figure gives you advice. They did the same thing with Mulder on The X-Files. He's alive because old dude gave him some life force. So did he really die, or was it more like mystical CPR? I just didn't feel like it added much except to check off a box again of prophecy come true. JMS tried to make it go somewhere by giving Sheridan almost godlike status in the people's eyes after that, but he wrote that wrong too. Garibaldi complains about people worshipping Sheridan before we ever actually see anyone worship Sheridan. Little things like that which could have been structured better are where I say, "come on, JMS, you can do better."
This is a relatively minor issue though, as it's essential to get Sheridan back. On the whole, though there's no real standout like "Passing Through Gethsemane", I think season 4 is my favorite. It is the most consistent, dramatic and engaging, with good character bits and minus a few hiccups is well-plotted. All that stuff with G'Kar and Londo is great (I notice they swapped Andreas and Peter's placement in the credits this season). I was hoping for a little more use of the Teeps during the Shadow War. There is some fantastic effects work here (though there's still some lousier bits here and there later). The resolution of the war was a bit anticlimactic; felt like the end of "Squire of Gothos", the parent scolding the races and then they leave. Sheridan does bring up a good point, that if the Vorlons had these war machines that could destroy planets, why didn't they just blow up Z'ha'dum a long time ago? They were just using everyone else as pawns in a twisted game. I liked seeing a Vorlon's true form, all squiddy and not angelic. It does disappoint me though that the Vorlons never really neaded the encounter suits and just used them to be reclusive.
The next phase with the Earth War and the telepaths also plays really well. I just wish that more hints of those things were dropped in the last few Shadow War episodes to remind us of what else is going on instead of making it feel like a finale 6 episodes in. I like Garibaldi going off as a private dick, even if it was instigated by mind control. It was starting to really bother me how he was so out of character but they just wouldn't tell us anything for so long. There is one episode, and I forget which one, where bits of the old Garibaldi come through and I think that's when it's most successful. I'd love it if the season were more that kind of a blend where just enough old Garibaldi came out that you didn't just immediately say, "He's out of his mind, what did they do to him?" I always believed something had been done to him.
Hey, we finally get scenes on Earth! But the whole way the resolved the President Clark stuff bugged me. That whole arc was just mishandled from the beginning. I was hoping for some connection with the other dark races like the Drak or maybe the parasite thing on that guy on Mars. It feels like they set up a threat still remaining that after an episode or two has been ignored (unless some of this is addressed in season 5). I also wondered if the tentacular parasite thing was perhaps related to the one in Thirdspace, maybe to give that movie more reason to exist.
I like the way they used Lyta, and how she and Zack started connecting a little over how no one wants her for her, just as a tool. And that moment she puts the gloves back on! I like Lyta (suck it, Talia!).
I don't know if I'll bother doing an episode breakdown for this season, since so many of the arc ones start to run together for me. I just want to point out the two biggest failings for me in an otherwise strong season:
1) what happened to Garibaldi. We know he was taken by Shadows because we saw it. Then we find out he's been manipulated by Psi Corps. But there was never any real connection between the two. I actually went back and watched Bester's monologue again to see if I missed anything. I just don't understand how or why the Shadows would turn someone over to Psi Corps. It makes no sense to me. And hey, there's Harlan Ellison as the guy who wiped his mind. Anyway, that's the one hole in the story that I still don't get.
2) The finale episode. I know there are behind the scenes reasons why a throwaway final episode was made. But the season had already ended really. This one felt like just a goofy afterthought, like one of those one-off Fringe episodes. After watching it I thought, "please tell me this isn't setting up the next season to be something totally different, like Fringe." It's set at the beginning of the following year, which has never happened on B5 yet (actually, did they cross the new year at the end of the previous episode, or am I misremembering?). Some the earlier bits are mildly amusing as far as the go, but the episode is so inconsequential and just feels like writer's wankery. I don't want meaningless short stories with no context. This is B5, not Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina. The thing with the monks was too ridiculous for me, and then to end it with the world blowing up a million years in the future? That to me negates the message JMS was trying to project. He was saying that the deeds of our heroes would resonate and have impact for years to come; but to me, the fact that humanity somehow destroys itself and becomes non-corporeal (what??) is not a message of hope.
It was just a bad way to end the season, and thank Valen that TNT asked for "In the Beginning", which helps cleanse the palate.
Oh, and I didn't even mention Ivanova's almost death. I was at first annoyed at how they telegraphed her dying at the end of the episode, but glad they were just teasing us. It was a good ending for Marcus.
on to season 5!
-TK
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Post by Mel on Sept 13, 2013 10:33:54 GMT -5
TK, well these are inconsequential comments, but here goes.
I loved your "mostly dead" comment about Sheridan. The Princess Bride is a much loved movie and book in our house.
I don't recall noticing that Andreas' and Peter's names switched places in the credits. So, how did it change? Who's on first? 
In season 5, there's an episode about the working stiffs on B5. One of the actors is Raymond O'Connor.
I can't find anything to verify it, but I'm sure he's on Dish ads, as one of the members of a loud Jersey family. Three of 'em stand in the kitchen, looking at an iPad. They get scared by a news bulletin, so they hide under a bed. I love love love that commercial. Raymond O'Connor is the one in the middle holding the iPad.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Sept 13, 2013 13:52:40 GMT -5
I don't recall noticing that Andreas' and Peter's names switched places in the credits. So, how did it change? Who's on first?
Usually Peter's name is first, then Andreas. But in season four, Andreas came first. I guess it was a defining time for G'Kar. Just found it curious. -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Sept 13, 2013 22:18:22 GMT -5
The season started a bit slow with the whole "Sheridan is dead" thing, which I could have done without. I'd have loved it if he didn't die but did return to Z'Ha'Dum later and die then. Instead we get typical "resurrection" stuff where it's played coy about whether he was ever really dead or only "mostly dead", with the limbo state where a wise old figure gives you advice. They did the same thing with Mulder on The X-Files. He's alive because old dude gave him some life force. So did he really die, or was it more like mystical CPR? I just didn't feel like it added much except to check off a box again of prophecy come true. JMS tried to make it go somewhere by giving Sheridan almost godlike status in the people's eyes after that, but he wrote that wrong too. Garibaldi complains about people worshipping Sheridan before we ever actually see anyone worship Sheridan. Little things like that which could have been structured better are where I say, "come on, JMS, you can do better." This is a relatively minor issue though, as it's essential to get Sheridan back. On the whole, though there's no real standout like "Passing Through Gethsemane", I think season 4 is my favorite. It is the most consistent, dramatic and engaging, with good character bits and minus a few hiccups is well-plotted. I was hoping for a little more use of the Teeps during the Shadow War. There is some fantastic effects work here (though there's still some lousier bits here and there later). The resolution of the war was a bit anticlimactic; felt like the end of "Squire of Gothos", the parent scolding the races and then they leave. I liked seeing a Vorlon's true form, all squiddy and not angelic. It does disappoint me though that the Vorlons never really neaded the encounter suits and just used them to be reclusive. The next phase with the Earth War and the telepaths also plays really well. I just wish that more hints of those things were dropped in the last few Shadow War episodes to remind us of what else is going on instead of making it feel like a finale 6 episodes in. I like Garibaldi going off as a private dick, even if it was instigated by mind control. It was starting to really bother me how he was so out of character but they just wouldn't tell us anything for so long. There is one episode, and I forget which one, where bits of the old Garibaldi come through and I think that's when it's most successful. I'd love it if the season were more that kind of a blend where just enough old Garibaldi came out that you didn't just immediately say, "He's out of his mind, what did they do to him?" I always believed something had been done to him. Hey, we finally get scenes on Earth! But the whole way the resolved the President Clark stuff bugged me. That whole arc was just mishandled from the beginning. I was hoping for some connection with the other dark races like the Drak or maybe the parasite thing on that guy on Mars. It feels like they set up a threat still remaining that after an episode or two has been ignored (unless some of this is addressed in season 5). I just want to point out the two biggest failings for me in an otherwise strong season: 1) what happened to Garibaldi. We know he was taken by Shadows because we saw it. Then we find out he's been manipulated by Psi Corps. But there was never any real connection between the two. I actually went back and watched Bester's monologue again to see if I missed anything. I just don't understand how or why the Shadows would turn someone over to Psi Corps. It makes no sense to me. And hey, there's Harlan Ellison as the guy who wiped his mind. Anyway, that's the one hole in the story that I still don't get. 2) The finale episode. I know there are behind the scenes reasons why a throwaway final episode was made. But the season had already ended really. This one felt like just a goofy afterthought, like one of those one-off Fringe episodes. After watching it I thought, "please tell me this isn't setting up the next season to be something totally different, like Fringe." It's set at the beginning of the following year, which has never happened on B5 yet (actually, did they cross the new year at the end of the previous episode, or am I misremembering?). Some the earlier bits are mildly amusing as far as the go, but the episode is so inconsequential and just feels like writer's wankery. I don't want meaningless short stories with no context. This is B5, not Tales of the Mos Eisley Cantina. The thing with the monks was too ridiculous for me, and then to end it with the world blowing up a million years in the future? That to me negates the message JMS was trying to project. He was saying that the deeds of our heroes would resonate and have impact for years to come; but to me, the fact that humanity somehow destroys itself and becomes non-corporeal (what??) is not a message of hope. It was just a bad way to end the season, and thank Valen that TNT asked for "In the Beginning", which helps cleanse the palate. Oh, and I didn't even mention Ivanova's almost death. I was at first annoyed at how they telegraphed her dying at the end of the episode, but glad they were just teasing us. It was a good ending for Marcus.
By the way, did you ever get to see Bugs Bunny, and what did you think of "The Illusion of Truth"? |
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Sept 22, 2013 12:24:26 GMT -5
Is that definitively stated or otherwise somehow implied? I forget. I believe they're able to live outside their encounter suits for a time, though not necessarily indefinitely, so they may have needed the suits over prolonged periods when not in their natural environment. I don't think it's every explicitly stated, but it's the impression I get that the Vorlons only stayed in the suits to be mysterious. After all, we see them in their angelic forms outside the suits several times, and we're meant to believe that the appeared this way on many of the other worlds as foundation for some of their great stories. This suggests to me that various environments are not a problem for them. Also, if they are sort of counterparts to the Shadows, the Shadows never need encounter suits. I read somewhere someone asked why the Vorlon at the end when Sheridan ended the war was in an encounter suit and not his true form, and JMS said only because of the time and computing power it would take to render that additional CG for the shot. Claudia's performance in that scene just after she wakes up really blew me away. It was as though she really put everything she had into it, body and soul. The pain she expresses was so intense that I just marveled while watching her act it out, and it really kind of annoyed me that science fiction shows go totally unnoticed at awards shows like the Emmys in particular. They avoid them entirely in favor of shows like "Grey's Anatomy" because they're so much more real supposedly, don't ya know. Yeah, it was fantastic. Awards shows are all politics and they like to promote esoteric programming or stuff we're "supposed" to like, often on cable channels (how else to explain the touting of Sex and the City and Girls as nomination-worthy "comedies"?). As TV has gotten broader and shifted away from three main networks, this has gotten worse for genre TV which gets lost in the cracks except in tech categories unless everyone's talking about it. In the 1960s, series like Twilight Zone and Star Trek were regularly nominated, even if they didn't win. Having said that, the other side of that coin is that awards are only decided by what episodes are submitted for consideration. Sometimes the ones in charge aren't smart about which episodes best showcase their work.
By the way, did you ever get to see Bugs Bunny, and what did you think of "The Illusion of Truth"?I honestly don't remember Bugs, but a lot of stuff runs together for me after awhile. I tend to watch these late at night and often fall asleep in the middle and have to go back and finish later. "Illusion of Truth" was one thing I intended to mention and forgot. I am very conflicted about it as an episode because it seems like it's denigrated all news journalism as propaganda and while that's sometimes true, I think it's too broad. We learn later the extent to which Clark had infiltrated ISN, having imprisoned most of the original staff and put his lackeys in charge. I can understand reporters there having to work under duress and not rock the boat too much, but what actually aired was disgustingly manipulated and usually (emphasize usually) that level of bias and doctoring doesn't represent the media on the whole. It's definitely out there. That's Michael Moore-style journalism where you shoot stuff, stage stuff, make stuff up all to sell your agenda as convincing "truth". These days this sort of "truthiness" is much more prevalent than it was even back when B5 first aired, but something about it rubbed me the wrong way. I can totally buy the investigative journalism angle where they learn about people in cryostasis and concoct an elaborate reasoning for it based on limited evidence. That alone I'd have been okay with, as it is the kind of thing investigative journalists like to jump on. If they had just said, "we're only presenting facts as we witnessed" and not flat-out lied about some of the other points, I'd have seen it as a decent indictment of the 24-hour news cycle. But instead it's all about the propaganda machine that changes facts to fit the story and I think that casts the net too broad. A liberal bias or events out of context is one thing, but to say "here are things as we saw them" and it's all lies (didn't they even doctor the interview with Sheridan and Delenn) goes too far. And I'm sure that's the point, but I felt almost like the press were being demonized. It was smart of Sheridan to create his own pirate news channel though. But of course, he uses the free press to manipulate situations too, he just does it without lying. It's brilliant, but is it so different from what the ISN folks were doing: using the broadcast to gain a desired response from the viewership? -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Sept 25, 2013 10:58:53 GMT -5
>>I don't think it's every explicitly stated, but it's the impression I get that the Vorlons only stayed in the suits to be mysterious. After all, we see them in their angelic forms outside the suits several times, and we're meant to believe that the appeared this way on many of the other worlds as foundation for some of their great stories. This suggests to me that various environments are not a problem for them. Also, if they are sort of counterparts to the Shadows, the Shadows never need encounter suits. I read somewhere someone asked why the Vorlon at the end when Sheridan ended the war was in an encounter suit and not his true form, and JMS said only because of the time and computing power it would take to render that additional CG for the shot.<< -TK
That last part may be true, but I do think you're mistaken about the Vorlons not needing their encounter suits. I could be wrong here as well given that it's been so long since I've seen it, but I think the Doctor alludes to their needing their encounter suits in the pilot, "The Gathering". I don't remember for sure though, so take that for what it is or isn't worth.
>>I honestly don't remember Bugs, but a lot of stuff runs together for me after awhile. I tend to watch these late at night and often fall asleep in the middle and have to go back and finish later.<<
The Bugs cartoon was one of the probably more easily remembered segments of the Bugs Bunny cartoon series. It's the one in which Daffy Duck is being tormented by a cartoonist who rearranges and erases him throughout the skit. Then we see at the end who's doing it, and it's Bugs, who closes out the segment by saying to the audience, "Ain't I a stinker?" Joe's use of that particular episode was as an obvious metaphor to what he had done and was still doing to Garibaldi at that point in putting him through the wringer via Bester's manipulation of him, mostly unseen up to that point, throughout that season.
>>"Illusion of Truth" was one thing I intended to mention and forgot.<<
Well, don't feel too bad, because I meant to get back to you about this part of your post in particular over the weekend, but forgot and only remembered about it last night.
>>I am very conflicted about it as an episode because it seems like it's denigrated all news journalism as propaganda and while that's sometimes true, I think it's too broad.<<
And here's where I disagree with you on this right at the outset. What you're saying may have applied more so back then when the episode first aired, although I'd point out how much media manipulation was going on in favor of the then President, Bill Clinton, and the Democrats, but now it's reached such an obvious point of ridiculousness concerning the current occupant of the White House as to make me feel all the more confident in supporting what JMS did in that particular episode by making it an indictment of mainstream news media manipulation. Look at what the mainstream press does now by burying stories unfavorable to Obama, such as Bhengazi, or a whole host of other things too numerous to mention here, and it certainly seems as though the so-called 'journalists' of now took a page right out of Straczynksi's book as far as perhaps even using that episode of the show as their bible on how to cover things, or simply not cover them at all. Limbaugh has remarked on his show that the mainstream news media reports all of their news through the prism of whether it's good or not for Obama. Can that really he denied? No--they're disgusting, and we see it every day in their coverage, or not at all by what they choose to intentionally bury. They also use their journalistic credentials to target and destroy people they don't like--namely conservatives. They're nothing but Democrat Party apparatchiks at this point, and are rather brazen about it to boot, so how was B5's "The Illusion of Truth" a gross exaggeration? I don't see it as such. In fact, I see it as all too accurate to a great extent.
>>We learn later the extent to which Clark had infiltrated ISN, having imprisoned most of the original staff and put his lackeys in charge.<<
Oh, no --that was made clear previously I believe. They got pulled off the air.
>>I can understand reporters there having to work under duress and not rock the boat too much, but what actually aired was disgustingly manipulated and usually (emphasize usually) that level of bias and doctoring doesn't represent the media on the whole. It's definitely out there. That's Michael Moore-style journalism where you shoot stuff, stage stuff, make stuff up all to sell your agenda as convincing "truth". These days this sort of "truthiness" is much more prevalent than it was even back when B5 first aired, but something about it rubbed me the wrong way.<<
You knew it was an extreme case in that episode, but what makes you think it was any different under communist regimes, which controlled the media in the same way? What do you think the press is like in North Korea, for instance? What that episode illustrated is what can happen when a country moves from being one based on freedom and liberty to totalitarian control. Clark was a dictator; he was corrupt. Look at what he had his people do to Sheridan when they took him prisoner and how they tried to distort and alter his perceptions in order to gain control of his mind. What makes you think an administration (and I use that term very loosely) like that would treat the populace in general any differently?
They wouldn't obviously.
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Post by TK on Sept 25, 2013 13:36:03 GMT -5
The Bugs cartoon was one of the probably more easily remembered segments of the Bugs Bunny cartoon series. It's the one in which Daffy Duck is being tormented by a cartoonist who rearranges and erases him throughout the skit. Then we see at the end who's doing it, and it's Bugs, who closes out the segment by saying to the audience, "Ain't I a stinker?" Joe's use of that particular episode was as an obvious metaphor to what he had done and was still doing to Garibaldi at that point in putting him through the wringer via Bester's manipulation of him, mostly unseen up to that point, throughout that season.? I remember now. I didn't remember which short it was; as I said, they start to run together when you watch them all at once. And here's where I disagree with you on this right at the outset. What you're saying may have applied more so back then when the episode first aired, although I'd point out how much media manipulation was going on in favor of the then President, Bill Clinton, and the Democrats, but now it's reached such an obvious point of ridiculousness concerning the current occupant of the White House as to make me feel all the more confident in supporting what JMS did in that particular episode by making it an indictment of mainstream news media manipulation. Look at what the mainstream press does now by burying stories unfavorable to Obama, such as Bhengazi, or a whole host of other things too numerous to mention here, and it certainly seems as though the so-called 'journalists' of now took a page right out of Straczynksi's book as far as perhaps even using that episode of the show as their bible on how to cover things, or simply not cover them at all. Limbaugh has remarked on his show that the mainstream news media reports all of their news through the prism of whether it's good or not for Obama. Can that really he denied? No--they're disgusting, and we see it every day in their coverage, or not at all by what they choose to intentionally bury. They also use their journalistic credentials to target and destroy people they don't like--namely conservatives. They're nothing but Democrat Party apparatchiks at this point, and are rather brazen about it to boot, so how was B5's "The Illusion of Truth" a gross exaggeration? I don't see it as such. In fact, I see it as all too accurate to a great extent. ? Oh I totally agree that the mainstream media is in the pocket of the Democratic party for the most part, but they still at least "think" or like to tink they are being objective. What we saw in the episode was Michael Moore level stuff. Mostly the liberal media promote stories in their agenda or cover up stuff they don't like, or promote lies from liars they trust; but they aren't usually FABRICATING things themselves. They just promote existing fabrications. Benghazi is a good example. The media's refusal to report the truth but stick to the Obama administrations talking points is despicable, but they themselves didn't create the lies. That's the difference for me. And I do think in the '90s it was a bit less obvious. >>We learn later the extent to which Clark had infiltrated ISN, having imprisoned most of the original staff and put his lackeys in charge.<<Oh, no --that was made clear previously I believe. They got pulled off the air.? I remember that, but I wasn't clear afterwards if the people still on air after that point were just doing it with guns to their head or if they were all Clarke's replacements. You knew it was an extreme case in that episode, but what makes you think it was any different under communist regimes, which controlled the media in the same way? What do you think the press is like in North Korea, for instance? What that episode illustrated is what can happen when a country moves from being one based on freedom and liberty to totalitarian control. Clark was a dictator; he was corrupt. Look at what he had his people do to Sheridan when they took him prisoner and how they tried to distort and alter his perceptions in order to gain control of his mind. What makes you think an administration (and I use that term very loosely) like that would treat the populace in general any differently? I absolutely believe it's not only plausible, but happens all the time. Which is why I left feeling conflicted over the whole thing. Part of me felt like it was an expression of that sensibility, but part of me felt it was just a broad attack on mainstream media in general, so I just didn't know how to feel. I'd also suspect there'd be more underground attempts at communications and broadcasts, but maybe we just didn't see it. This is all part of my complaint of things moving too fast with the Clark thread, because it makes it hard to believe good people are still loyal to Clark while all this is going on. I have a feeling in totalitarian regimes, people know there's something they aren't being told. After Clark's goons busted in on ISN on the air, the fact that these things could be put out there and folks would just buy it was a stretch to me. Ultimately I think viewers are most willing to accept bias and slant from media that line up with their own existing biases. It was thought-provoking, I just thought it may have accomplished more by not hitting so hard. -TK |
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Post by captainbasil on Sept 25, 2013 17:26:31 GMT -5
The fourth season really delivers on several levels. The media manipulation is fascinating. I had forgotten about it. Season 5 is flawed but I won't blame JS because he thought the 4th season was the end up until the last gun was fired.
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Sept 27, 2013 18:22:26 GMT -5
>>I remember that, but I wasn't clear afterwards if the people still on air after that point were just doing it with guns to their head or if they were all Clarke's replacements.<< --TK
The newscasters changed. It was pretty obvious that the people who took the place of the original newscasters were nothing but propaganda-driven mouthpieces for the Clark regime.
>>It was thought-provoking, I just thought it may have accomplished more by not hitting so hard.<<
Look at the way the left tries to create class and race division in this country. There is virtually no criticism of this president that can be made without it being called "racist". Well, in "The Illusion of Truth" the media promotes xenophobia, trying to make aliens look shady and suspicious. That's why they use Delenn and the Minbari to attack Sheridan. Notice how they tout his war record, claiming he's a patriot who's been corrupted, and his thinking undermined by 'alien influence', and that it's not really his fault supposedly. Notice how they use the so-called 'expert' who provides input to further that notion. I think it's fair to compare it to Michael Moore stuff, but look at how many people are swayed by that guy's films. "Fahrenheit 911" was the most successful :::ahem::: documentary film ever at the box office. Yes, half the country knows he's a hack partisan clown, but he resonates with the nutball left. And unfortunately the people in this country are getting dumber all the time. So many of them believe what they hear on TV simply because they heard it on TV.
I don't view journalism with as high a regard as you do, and when I look at what's happened to the mainstream news media in this country, I think we're in real danger of things getting as bad as depicted in that episode. It's just a question of how long it might take.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Sept 29, 2013 18:26:22 GMT -5
Today I finished "Objects at Rest" and the movie The River of Souls. I'm saving the finale for after I watch the Legend of the Rangers movie. I'm debating whether to discuss season 5 before that, since the finale was shot before it anyway.
I'm also debating whether to watch Crusade or not. Either way, I'm almost done with Babylon 5.
-TK
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Post by captainbasil on Oct 4, 2013 6:51:51 GMT -5
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Oct 4, 2013 10:55:04 GMT -5
Thanks for bringing this to my attention, since I haven't been to the "Babylon 5" subreddit over there in weeks. It's just not as active as the Trek subreddit there, and they didn't even post the article to that group. (Gee, I wonder why.) But the writer of that piece obviously prefers B5, even though he liked DS9 as well.
It would be interesting to see the reaction if someone did post this over in the Trek subreddit.
And apparently it totally escaped the author's attention that Bryan Cranston also guest starred in a "Babylon 5" episode. He attributed the recent reference to B5 to one of the writers on "Breaking Bad" *'obviously liking that show'*, but it was also there as a nod to Cranston's one-time appearance in it was well obviously.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Oct 9, 2013 22:27:04 GMT -5
I have finished Season 5, and so apart from The Lost Tales DVD and the Crusade spin-off, I have now finished Babylon 5. Season 5 is definitely a mixed bag, and though I'm glad to have it to ease the transition to the end and not be so abrupt if it had just stopped with season 4; it seems like the writing of season 5 was terribly planned, taking almost half the season to really get going and ultimately still leaving certain things hanging which never should have been left.
The entire Byron arc ultimately feels like a mistake. Though it's a catalyst to do more with Lyta, it feels like it comes out of nowhere and then ends with very little consequence. Ultimately it feels like the entire arc existed solely to explain that one scene in "The Destruction of Falling Stars", another reason to dislike that episode.
With Claudia leaving the show, we get a new commander. Lochley is a decent addition, though I could have done without her also having been Sheridan's ex-wife.
Following JMS's constant WWII comparisons, season 5 follows the problems of maintaining the Alliance, similar to the formation of the United Nations after WWII. Grand idealism is fine until you have to get down to brass tacks and work with each other. Some of that worked well, though it sometimes also felt like just trying to create drama. But on the whole I thought the uneasiness of the Alliance was a good story direction.
Interesting to me that when series get into their final years and sometimes spin their wheels, they do a cult storyline. DS9 had the Dukat/pah-wraith cult. BSG had the Baltar cult. B5 has both the Byron cult of telepaths and the cult of G'Kar! The initial bit of this story, with G'Kar's book having been published in his absence making him a hero was fun, but as it went on I got bored of it. And I could have done without his 10 minute lamp metaphor about truth and God that was essentially nonsense to me.
The opening title sequence for season 5 is to me the worst of all 5 seasons.
The thread with Lennier betraying the Rangers felt rather forced to me. His running off because of his feelings for Delenn made sense, but they never really knew what to do with him, and I don't feel like he got a satisfactory resolution. Some of his episodes are good, but that stuff toward the end I didn't like.
Anyway, let's take a look at some high and low points of season 5:
No Compromise -- Who was responsible for killing the guys and sending them to Babylon 5? Did we ever find out? This is one of those weird threads that starts the season to try to give it intrigue, and I'm not sure it was ever properly handled. Maybe I just lost track of it. And how about that one telepath boy who doesn't speak? I thought for sure they were setting him up for later, but no he never appears again!
The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari -- not bad, though a little too cute story-wise. It's weird to have it here smack at the start of the telepath arc and have nothing to do with it. THIS should have been the extra episode for season 4. It feels odd for Londo to be dealing with this stuff so late.
A View From the Gallery -- another last season sort of idea, reminiscent of "Lower Decks". Harlan Ellison gets story credit. It's a cute idea, though it doesn't do much more for me. They sort of break the fourth wall here, putting the words of viewers into the characters' mouths (like describing the White Stars as plucked chickens).
Day of the Dead -- I don't wish to bad-mouth Neil Gaiman, but I just don't get this episode. It's a very first season sort of episode, and not in a good way. Much as JMS tried to stick some plot foreshadowing in here, it's inconsequential. More than that, it was WAY too predictable. The writing telegraphed itself too much. As soon as G'Kar objected, I knew the whole thing. The episode tries to do some "Naked Time"-esque character work, like with Lochley and that's only moderately successful. Interesting to bring back that one chick who had a thing for Garibaldi, though I almost feel it undercuts the punch of the previous episode. And why is Morden in this story? Everyone else sees the ghost of someone they were close to; was Lennier ever even in the same room with Morden? That didn't make sense to me. Oh, and is this the one with Rebo and Zooty? That's another thing that bugged me. Interesting casting Penn and Teller, who I like, but it also felt wrong since Teller's schtick is that he doesn't talk. So they have to write in this weird voice-box thing. I also didn't like the idea of Rebo and Zooty being contemporary comedians. I preferred to think of them as from a decade or two prior, and that people who like their act are like people who still like the classic comedy duos of the 20th Century today.
Somewhere in here Lyta starts a sexual relationship with Byron, which made me really bummed for Zack.
The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father -- Now this is a great episode. I liked seeing things from the Psi Corps' point of view. Heck, this could have been the season opener. This season would have absolutely been stronger had this one aired earlier; it would have helped with establishing Byron's character and backstory. Seeing how things end here would only help us to sympathize with Byron. And the girl in this one is cute. Screw Crusade, I'd love to get a spin-off with her and Lyta. Call it Bester's Beauties, where she and Lyta team up to fight crime! That's a show I'd watch!
The Fall of Centauri Prime -- another good one. Once this arc really gets going, the season picks up. Finally we get to the promised point of Londo becoming Emperor and the Drakh being behind it, which had been hinted at long ago.
Objects in Motion/Objects at Rest -- pretty good almost finale stuff here, even if it doesn't fully resolve every thread. A lot of stuff from "War Without End" is still left hanging without connection for us. But I'll get to that later.
River of Souls -- Not a bad movie, though again follows the trope of the misguided archaeologist. It's essentially the Thirdspace formula all over again. It's a better movie than that, and it's nice to give Lochley a more central role here and look at life on the station after Sheridan is gone. There were chunks of season 5 where she didn't appear at all and it was conspicuous. Martin Sheen appears as a soul hunter (they return!), which only makes me think of the movie Soultaker, which also featured a Sheen (or Estevez?) stealing souls. It was riffed on MST3K, and the full episode is here:
Anyway, the movie has one fatal flaw: it wants to say both that the souls here were not dying but evolving so they shouldn't have been taken, but then also act as if any soul would rebel to being locked away in a storage facility. They should have just picked one focus: let souls move on or these aren't dead souls. Too much is said here that doesn't gel for me.
The Legend of the Rangers -- Obviously a pilot for a series Sci-Fi didn't pick up. And rightly so. I'm not intrigued enough by the Rangers to watch a weekly series about them anyway. G'Kar's cameo is welcome, but odd here. The reference to Lyta only makes us wonder what's going on with her (we never find out). It's also frustrating to have scenes on Minbar and not see Sheridan or Delenn (especially when messages are sent from them). The new enemy, The Hand, is described as worse than the Shadows to which I say, come on. And it doesn't help that their ships are just giant snowflakes. The notion of having weapons that are fully intuitive and controlled just by body movement is interesting, but during the firefight toward the end where she's just punching and kicking in mid-air, it just looks silly. Like an astronaut having a tantrum in space. ...I also question why this ship HAS such sophisticated systems if it's twenty years old. Ultimately, it felt like JMS was trying to make a hybrid of Babylon 5 and Firefly to gain viewers. An interesting experiment, but ultimately I think it was a mistake. Oh, and notice that in the final shot of Babylon 5, Epsilon III is conspicuously missing.
A Call to Arms -- Now this is a movie. The effects are great, the story is good, and it deals with the lingering Drakh issue which bothered me ever since they were introduced back in season 4. We know there's more going on there, since they are controlling things on Centauri Prime. Tony Todd is always welcome. Really my only complaint about it is that in the last 10 minutes it becomes a back-door pilot for Crusade. I'd have preferred it have a solid ending. Still, a much better pilot than "Legend of the Rangers". I like the new jump gate effect, which looks great here but looked flat and off in Legend of the Rangers.
Sleeping in Light -- not a bad finale, though something of just an epilogue. Nothing really happens except Sheridan finally dies and the station blows up. It's nice to see everyone in the future, to know Vir does become emperor, to see Garibaldi's daughter (another cutie). But it is all rather inconsequential; just a final elegy. The end credits were nice. I feel like this could have been a superb finale if it were two hours and interspersed with another story set a few years earlier. We never know if Lyta does get her telepath homeworld. Worse than that is what was going on in 2278 on Centauri Prime. Why was the city still burning? Has there been constant warfare? Vir doesn't seem to have a keeper; have the Drakh left Centauri Prime? If so, how? And what leads G'Kar to strangle Londo? We've seen so much prophecy fulfilled, it just seems weird to leave these things floating out there. I understand the episode was shot back at the end of last season just to put a button on the show, but knowing they now had a full season, I'd have loved an episode to close out these questions properly instead of leaving them to books or something like that.
And ultimately that's the worst thing about the ending of the series: it leaves me wanting a bit more. Season 5 could have led more into giving us answers about that leap ahead 15 years that we'd been teased with several times. But it's like JMS just wanted to be slavish to the one season equals one year format. Even one more movie could have done it. I'm left with some lingering questions for that gap between "Objects at Rest" and "Sleeping in Light". I'd much rather see the events that lead to Londo's death than see the moment Sheridan finally gives up the ghost. It was nice to see Ivanova again though.
Speaking of which, that's the one thing I must object to about "War Without End": we were shown a future in which Babylon 5 blew up with Ivanova in command. At the time I refused to believe that was just some weird alternate timeline since time had never been shown to work that way on this series. Time has always been pretty consistent and prophecy always comes true. So I kept holding out hope that somehow when B5 blew up, it would happen that way. But as it stands now, there is no reason for that transmission to exist back in "War Without End" and that's unfortunate. So that really bothers me.
But having said that, it's a far more consistent series than Battlestar Galactica or Lost or other high-profile series. I still prefer DS9. And I don't think Babylon 5 is the best series ever, or even among the best series ever. But it's a definite important piece of 1990s television, and among those lower-budget syndicated series is definitely the cream of the crop. It is not a series without its flaws, it's biggest being that I leave it wishing for a bit more. But when all is said and done, it could be worse. There are certainly storytelling missteps, but this is a generally consistent series, and one that I could see having strong re-watch potential, which higher profile series do not have. This may even be a series that in some ways is better the second time. I remain disappointed with how the Drakh storyline was left, and see no need to set up another 5-year series to resolve (since we know from "Sleeping in Light" that it all works out anyway). With the passing of Andreas, I'm not sure it's even worth making new shows or movies at this point. But I'm not opposed to Babylon 5 getting back on TV in rerun. While I might not praise it as highly as others, and the effects work for the first 3 years was awfully hard to get through, I am glad that I saw it.
-TK
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Post by captainbasil on Oct 10, 2013 5:38:01 GMT -5
You hit the nail on the head. Season 5 is a mixed bag. I don't even own Season 5 yet. I've put off buying it for this reason. The Byron story does seem forced and I never liked it. I liked the Gaiman story but it's not for everyone. All in all, for me, Babylon 5 is the best science fiction TV series ever made. Sure it's flawed, but it's probably also the best novel for television ever done. As for Lost Tales, I recommend it but with reservations. The production values are what drag it down. Rent it and see what you think. I'm glad you gave B5 a shot. |
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Post by Mel on Oct 13, 2013 11:02:26 GMT -5
TK, I loved your Season 5 summation. I agree with a lot of it. How much better it could have been had TPTB given the go-ahead for season 5 early in season 4. Oh well.
I could not stand the Bryon storyline. If it was deleted in full, I wouldn't miss a minute of it.
I would have loved more about the Corps, too.
At the time, I felt I understood perfectly how the Centauri situation resolved itself, and why G'Kar and Londo strangled each other to death. I don't remember it clearly to explain it here, other than G'Kar acted as a friend, trying to release Londo, even in death if need be, from the keeper, and when the keeper woke up, it struggled with G'Kar for it's own life.
Btw, I told you Londo is my favorite character. My screen name, Prime, comes from Centauri Prime.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Oct 29, 2013 15:28:51 GMT -5
I was at Walmart today and they had the Crusade complete series DVD for ten bucks. I almost bought it, and may still. I know it's all up on YouTube (and I already watched one), but I dislike watching stuff on the computer if I can avoid it. Anyway, I do intend to eventually finish Crusade and Lost Tales just because as a completist I like to finish things.
-TK
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Post by captainbasil on Oct 30, 2013 6:51:34 GMT -5
I was at Walmart today and they had the Crusade complete series DVD for ten bucks. I almost bought it, and may still. I know it's all up on YouTube (and I already watched one), but I dislike watching stuff on the computer if I can avoid it. Anyway, I do intend to eventually finish Crusade and Lost Tales just because as a completist I like to finish things. -TK I need to give Crusade another shot. I have not watched it since it first aired. 10 bucks ? That might be worth a purchase. |
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Yes, I know the answers to those questions, but of course, I'm not saying a word. 
