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Post by TrekBeatTK on Feb 26, 2014 8:52:32 GMT -5
I agree that most of his observations are pretty much on target, but where I found most disagreement with him was about Spock --mainly the Spock of the original series as opposed to Quinto's depiction of the character. I felt he understated the extent to which Spock became very depressed after believing he had killed Kirk in the arena in "Amok Time". He turned himself in for immediate arrest once back to the ship and had resigned himself to the fact that his life, as he knew it, was over and would never be the same. He was prepared to go to prison, if not worse, for having killed Kirk. This is true. The author definitely glossed over how emotionally effected Spock was time and again. The difference was really that Nimoy played it in a brilliant understated but very real way that you could see. And there are a few times when Quinto genuinely gets to that place, but for the most part bizarro Spock spends too much of both movies in some sort of emotional crisis so we don't see the contrast from stoic Spock. You also mentioned the tears in TMP. That's all part of Spock's journey throughout the series to accepting his human half. In that film he was about to deny all emotion at the start of the film, but by the end he has a change of heart. TWOK he dies for his friend. Then TVH is about reminding him of those human parts so that by TFF he can say "I have found myself. I know who I am." But new Spock doesn't go on a journey of discovery. He just bounces between two states at the writers' whim. -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Feb 26, 2014 13:23:50 GMT -5
You also mentioned the tears in TMP. That's all part of Spock's journey throughout the series to accepting his human half. In that film he was about to deny all emotion at the start of the film, but by the end he has a change of heart. TWOK he dies for his friend. Then TVH is about reminding him of those human parts so that by TFF he can say "I have found myself. I know who I am." But new Spock doesn't go on a journey of discovery. He just bounces between two states at the writers' whim. -TK Beautifully stated and right on target. There's nothing I would even add to what you just said there. |
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Post by Mel on Feb 26, 2014 19:37:56 GMT -5
7. The Rest of the Crew
Back on the AOL boards, I was shocked -- absolutely stunned -- to learn that the TOS Enterprise was not the flagship of the Federation. In the article 10 Ways ST Isn't ST, the writer said the new crew is on the flagship. So, is the writer wrong, or is that yet another detail that JJ and crew got wrong or deliberately changed? I agree that the 2009 and 2013 Kirk and crew seem too inexperienced and undisciplined to have the Federation's flagship.
I always thought of TOS Scotty as being a two-fisted drinker. The writer said the original Scotty wouldn't be found in a bar. I think that's only because he's on a spaceship most of the time!
3. Bang Bang Pew Pew
Um, bang bang I get. What does pew pew mean?
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Feb 27, 2014 8:30:33 GMT -5
7. The Rest of the Crew
Back on the AOL boards, I was shocked -- absolutely stunned -- to learn that the TOS Enterprise was not the flagship of the Federation. In the article 10 Ways ST Isn't ST, the writer said the new crew is on the flagship. So, is the writer wrong, or is that yet another detail that JJ and crew got wrong or deliberately changed? I agree that the 2009 and 2013 Kirk and crew seem too inexperienced and undisciplined to have the Federation's flagship.
3. Bang Bang Pew Pew
Um, bang bang I get. What does pew pew mean?
I don't think Kirk's Enterprise was the flagship. Picard's definitely was. "pew pew" is a cutesy way to refer to laser (or phaser) fire. So where a normal gun would go "bang bang", an energy weapon goes "pew pew". -TK |
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Post by CRAMBAM on Feb 28, 2014 7:38:29 GMT -5
Scotty was a drinker, and he got drunk on occasion, but he wasn't an alcoholic.
Would he go to a bar? Maybe.
But the point was that Scotty's idea of fun was reading new technical journals. He loved engineering that much. There are at least 2 examples of this on TOS. One was in the Tribble episode, where Kirk gives him a dressing down, yells at him, and then confines him to quarters. Scotty gets happy, saying it's a chance to read his technical journals.
I'm sure his quarters has booze, and his reaction wasn't getting drunk.
There was also one of the movies, I think ST6, where Scotty is just relaxing reading some journals as well.
I think it may be fair that this isn't one of the stronger criticisms though, because under the circumstances, I could see Scotty going to a bar.
In STID, I felt that Scotty was the biggest improvement. Putting the Shatner debacle aside, the biggest problem I had with ST09, even bigger than the whole "delete the prime universe" thing, was how badly they botched Scotty. The fact that they clearly listened and tried to get him more in character was noticed, and not countered by the fact that he went to a bar.
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Post by Mel on Mar 1, 2014 1:37:32 GMT -5
Oh, I never meant to imply that Scotty was an alcoholic or a drunk! Just that he enjoyed his Scotch.
Btw, tonight we watched The World's End (2013) with Simon Pegg, who is a co-writer. It's about a pub crawl and has some SF. It's pretty funny. But I would have liked it better if ... oh never mind. I don't want to spoil it for those who haven't seen it.
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Post by CRAMBAM on Mar 2, 2014 17:27:32 GMT -5
Right. But in the first movie, the writers treated Scotty as comic relief only, and he is so much more than that.
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Mar 28, 2014 13:05:26 GMT -5
Someone enjoyed posting this over on Reddit: |
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Post by kreliroth on Mar 28, 2014 14:11:41 GMT -5
The IMDB individual episode ratings have very little credibility for older shows (as in before 2008 or so), I find. TOS is probably one of the few they get right. The ratings for "24" and BSG episodes made no sense at all. I think TV.com and the old SFOS site are better indications of fan opinion for Star Trek.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Mar 28, 2014 14:15:20 GMT -5
Someone enjoyed posting this over on Reddit: Not sure the graphs really prove anything. But this does remind me that for years I've been slowly working through all the series to come up with a kind of personal definitive list of what the best series, and what the best season is of all time. Each episode gets a yes or no vote on three criteria: is it good television or a good episode of that particular series, is it good Star Trek, and is it good sci-fi. TNG for example may have good sci-fi that falls flat as an episode, or DS9 has a lot that's great TV but not great Star Trek. Then I tabulate all the yeses and take that as a percentage of the season (and later the series). Percentages are the only fair way of judging them, since episode counts vary widely. Basically, it's about the ratio of good episodes to bad ones, using several different factors to determine what a "good" episode is. "Symbiosis" is good Star Trek, but not a good episode. Anyway, I've still got about half a season of DS9 and Voyager to finish before it's all done, but to date TOS comes out to be the best series overall. When it's finished, I'll post my final numbers. -TK |
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Post by CRAMBAM on Mar 29, 2014 16:02:21 GMT -5
TOS spawned a billion dollar franchise. The most success in the movies have involved the original crew. There's really nothing beyond that. TNG is just a spinoff that did well.
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Post by Mel on Apr 5, 2014 12:14:34 GMT -5
The charts are beautiful, all those colors on the black backgrounds. They remind me of outer space photos and DNA chains.
I can't argue with Cram that TOS spawned a billion dollar industry, which is successful on any chart.
Anyway, below, I'm trying to express something, but it's hard for me to put into words.
If the series that came after TOS appear more popular, could it be because the audience base grows with each new version of Trek?
For instance, when TOS ran the first time, there was the original audience (I'm one of those; btw, we are getting old and dying off). TOS was then rerun, and got another set of fans (many of you are in that audience group). Then TOS reran again (and again), getting more sets of audiences. Then the newer shows aired and got additional fans, plus a lot of TOS fans who watched the newer shows (like me). Does this make any sense?
Also, the results could be skewed because many TOS fans may not have bothered to rater the TOS episodes at imdb, since they aired so long ago.
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Post by CRAMBAM on Apr 6, 2014 7:16:53 GMT -5
I don't think the audience did grow with each new Trek. I think that once Berman killed off Kirk, the audience started to annually decline. It actually began its decline beforehand.
Plus, it's not apples to apples. TNG didn't air on a real network. It aired in syndication, and didn't have the prime time competition. Ultimately, TNG failed the test of time, as its movies were nowhere near as popular.
I think TOS' popularity actually soared under similar circumstances. Its ratings were actually better than people think, and cancelling it was a big network blunder because they didn't understand demographics, but when TOS went to reruns in syndication, it took off.
TNG was popular, and deservedly so. I'm glad it aired on syndication because it made 7 years possible.
But it was no TOS.
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 6, 2014 10:52:27 GMT -5
I don't think the audience did grow with each new Trek. I think that once Berman killed off Kirk, the audience started to annually decline. It actually began its decline beforehand. Plus, it's not apples to apples. TNG didn't air on a real network. It aired in syndication, and didn't have the prime time competition. Ultimately, TNG failed the test of time, as its movies were nowhere near as popular. I think TOS' popularity actually soared under similar circumstances. Its ratings were actually better than people think, and cancelling it was a big network blunder because they didn't understand demographics, but when TOS went to reruns in syndication, it took off. TNG was popular, and deservedly so. I'm glad it aired on syndication because it made 7 years possible. But it was no TOS. Try telling that to a lot of the kids over in the Reddit Trek Forum who don't know any better.  At any rate, I came across this little tidbit just yesterday purely by chance, which touches on some of what you just said, interestingly enough: "Decades of folklore is dispelled as the authentic documents are presented, revealing the true production order of the episodes (never before properly identified), the truth behind the ratings (Star Trek often won its time slot and was usually NBC's top-rated Thursday night series, and again, Friday night series), the actual cost of each episode, who wrote what part of which scripts (often not the writer given the screen credit), fan letters and trade reviews from the time of the first broadcasts, and much more."www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0989238105/ref=mw_dp_mdsc?dsc=1&qid=1396743108&sr=8-1I'll be ordering the Kindle edition of this book today, in that format mainly for convenience, as it makes the most sense. This is a hardcover 680-page book, and since I plan to read through it on the go, commuting to-and-from work for the most part, as well as wherever else when I'm on the move, there's no way I'm going to lug the hardcover edition around everywhere I go. I tend not to be into electronic reading, but in this instance it's the logical choice. But at any rate, if the original series usually won its timeslots, wherever they happened to schedule it, then the network probably didn't have to cancel it at the end of its second, and then again at the end of its third seasons. The reason they probably decided to do so was because of production costs, which then made it one of the most expensive shows on the air. If it was a police drama, it would have cost far less to produce, and the network probably would have kept it around longer, perhaps for as long as at least five seasons, which TOS should have gotten, but unfortunately didn't. |
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Apr 6, 2014 11:08:53 GMT -5
Try telling that to a lot of the kids over in the Reddit Trek Forum who don't know any better. At any rate, I came across this little tidbit just yesterday purely by chance, which touches on some of what you just said, interestingly enough: "Decades of folklore is dispelled as the authentic documents are presented, revealing the true production order of the episodes (never before properly identified), the truth behind the ratings (Star Trek often won its time slot and was usually NBC's top-rated Thursday night series, and again, Friday night series), the actual cost of each episode, who wrote what part of which scripts (often not the writer given the screen credit), fan letters and trade reviews from the time of the first broadcasts, and much more."www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0989238105/ref=mw_dp_mdsc?dsc=1&qid=1396743108&sr=8-1I'll be ordering the Kindle edition of this book today, in that format mainly for convenience, as it makes the most sense. This is a hardcover 680-page book, and since I plan to read through it on the go, commuting to-and-from work for the most part, as well as wherever else when I'm on the move, there's no way I'm going to lug the hardcover edition around everywhere I go. I tend not to be into electronic reading, but in this instance it's the logical choice. But at any rate, if the original series usually won its timeslots, wherever they happened to schedule it, then the network probably didn't have to cancel it at the end of its second, and then again at the end of its third seasons. The reason they probably decided to do so was because of production costs, which then made it one of the most expensive shows on the air. If it was a police drama, it would have cost far less to produce, and the network probably would have kept it around longer, perhaps for as long as at least five seasons, which TOS should have gotten, but unfortunately didn't. 1. A lot of one's Trek associations are as related to youth and nostalgia as anything else. I'm a young'un who grew up with TNG, so I have a fondness for it. It was more readily seen in syndicated reruns than TOS, but I watched those too. The TOS film comparison isn't entirely fair since it was the only Trek around for the first four films. TNG movies were competing with DS9 and VOY, and by the time of Nemesis it was a 15 year old property which maybe didn't appeal to the Voyager crowd. Compare to now the JJ Trek movies which have no other Trek competition and may be brainless but are making money. I don't think that's just because it's Kirk's crew. I think a lot of factors are involved. That's not to say that Insurrection would ever have been a huge movie, but it's still worth noting. But yeah, the younger the viewer, the more they'll connect with later Trek if they grew up with it. I find a lot of people, especially women, from my sister's generation tend to love Voyager. I think sometimes too TOS has to combat a perceived sexism/racism from some of the more, ahem, "progressive" viewers of today, despite the presence of Nichols and Takei and such. 2. That book looks really fascinating. Thanks for mentioning it! I'll have to check it out at some point. -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 6, 2014 11:25:02 GMT -5
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Post by Mel on Apr 6, 2014 18:27:07 GMT -5
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 8, 2014 6:50:53 GMT -5
That book does look interesting. It sure gets rave reviews. Man, it's only affordable on Kindle! Books for seasons two and three are supposedly on the way.
I wondered about the author, Marc Cushman (I even wondered if he's our Cram). Why would you think that? No, Marc's last name does start with a C, but it's not Cushman. Thanks for the link, although I had already seen that article. I haven't read it yet, and I don't like that site, but I may look at it at some point. TrekCore also posted a review of the book, but I only read part of their piece so far. Perhaps I'll post the link to their review later at some point. As for books two and three intended to cover the second and third seasons of the show, yeah, they're supposed to be coming, but God only knows when given that it took the author so long to finish book one in the series and get it published. So I'm not really holding my breath expecting them to hit shelves any time soon. I also suspect he'll have a really hard time putting together and writing book three given that so much went wrong during season three of the show, ultimately ending with its cancellation no less. I suspect he'd have to cover it all for what it was, but then end that last book in the series by discussing how things started changing for the better after it was cancelled and then moved into syndication, and then touching on the intended second TV series, followed by the theatrical features instead. So not all of book three would be a downer, but a substantial chunk of it would have to be. |
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Post by Mel on Apr 9, 2014 8:11:05 GMT -5
Gary, I'm not the brilliant detective I thought I might be, given the chance. I never figured out that Cram backwards spells Marc until Cram told me. I never knew, until you mentioned it, that his last initial is C. I just saw the "Marc" and thought of Cram, that's all.
I posted the link for anyone who might enjoy it.
And yeah, the author took a long time to finish book one, so who knows about books 2 and 3.
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 9, 2014 12:39:30 GMT -5
And yeah, the author took a long time to finish book one, so who knows about books 2 and 3.Mel, did you click on the two links I posted earlier this morning? Book Two is supposed to be coming out this month. Book Three in the fall. And the first link I posted earlier this morning is a bundle offer for the two books for just under fifty bucks. jbmj-book-store.myshopify.com/products/these-are-the-voyages-tos-season-one-two-bundlewww.jacobsbrownmediagroup.com/buy-these-are-the-voyages-tos-season-one.htmljbmj-book-store.myshopify.com/products/these-are-the-voyages-tos-season-one-hardbound-editionI didn't post that third link this morning because it's a mobile Page, but in case you want to look at it too, there you go. What's good about the bundle offer is not only the reduced price, but they also come autographed by the authors. If you look at that third link above you'll see that Book One also comes autographed by John D. F. Black, whereas his name isn't mentioned under the bundle offer as far as autographs go, but I would like to get his as well. So I have the Kindle Edition, which was what motivated me to get the hard cover editions as well. I like being able to flip through a book, and I think these will be authoritative collectibles because they so meticulously cover the development of the original show. I only got to read the section about the making of "The Cage" in Book One thus far, but I felt like I was there on the set while reading it. So all told, I'll have paid seventy bucks for Books One and Two and the Kindle Edition of Book One, including ten dollars for shipping on the two hardcovers. I'm just hoping I don't have a prolonged wait for both books to arrive being that Book Two isn't really out yet even though the website indicates it's available now. You can't purchase it by itself though, nor does Amazon have it either. Marc, you might want to get these yourself. |
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Post by captainbasil on Apr 10, 2014 6:43:16 GMT -5
TOS spawned a billion dollar franchise. The most success in the movies have involved the original crew. There's really nothing beyond that. TNG is just a spinoff that did well. As others have mentioned, don't tell that to the Reddit Kids. As a whole, they hate TOS. I agree, Cram, TOS was the most successful show with the most staying power. I love TNG, it's great, but it never came close to eclipsing TOS and the TNG movies are just bland. The Box Office proves this. |
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Post by CRAMBAM on Apr 10, 2014 7:28:00 GMT -5
I've always been curious as to the actual ratings numbers with TOS. With few exceptions, they were always hard to find.
There's a reason Abrams turned to the original series to reboot the franchise.
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 13, 2014 16:14:40 GMT -5
Well, I'm totally out of it. I have the Flu, and have been delirious with fever since Friday night, and the fever refuses to break.
I have been meaning to post about how they go into Shatner getting the role of Kirk after "The Cage" in "These Are The Voyages", but got totally sidetracked by this illness. I'll try to get to it in better detail as I had hoped to in the days ahead, but for now suffice it to say that you would love this part of the book, Marc. For one thing, it talks about Shatner's early career as an actor and his rising profile, and the author references review after review pertaining to Shatner's early roles, all of his performances highly praised by the various critics of the day. So for all of the critics and viewers that have subsequently taken whacks at Shatner through the years for being a terrible actor supposedly, there's definitive proof here that it simply wasn't the case as he started to become famous for his acting ability.
I especially liked the way Cushman ended the section on "The Cage" by saying that as good as that first pilot was, what it was missing was 'the wit, energy and swagger of Shatner as Kirk'. That's enough to get you cheering right there, because it's true, but then he begins going into detail about Shatner's background leading up to his getting the part, and it's pretty damn awesome.
I would have loved to have gotten Book One as a birthday present, but my birthday just passed last week, and I didn't find out about these books in time to let anyone know about them. I'm just putting it out there as an idea though because these books are a must have for fans of the original series like us.
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Apr 13, 2014 17:51:43 GMT -5
Well, I'm totally out of it. I have the Flu, and have been delirious with fever since Friday night, and the fever refuses to break. I would have loved to have gotten Book One as a birthday present, but my birthday just passed last week, so I didn't find out about these books in time to let anyone know about them. I'm just putting it out there as an idea though because these books are a must have for fans of the original series like us. I haven't got much disposable income right now, but I think I'm gonna have to get these. Get well, dude. -TK |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 15, 2014 15:12:57 GMT -5
Well, I'm totally out of it. I have the Flu, and have been delirious with fever since Friday night, and the fever refuses to break. I would have loved to have gotten Book One as a birthday present, but my birthday just passed last week, so I didn't find out about these books in time to let anyone know about them. I'm just putting it out there as an idea though because these books are a must have for fans of the original series like us. I haven't got much disposable income right now, but I think I'm gonna have to get these. Get well, dude. -TK I understand the problem of funds being tight, believe me, but Kindle is also an option, at least for the short-term anyway, given that it's only ten bucks. And you don't need a Kindle device necessarily in order to go that route and read it electronically, which is what I've been doing, although I've barely gotten to any of it the way I had hoped because I ended up getting clobbered by the Flu late last week. My hard copies are supposed to arrive tomorrow, and I'll be happy to receive those too. |
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 21, 2014 13:02:47 GMT -5
I've always been curious as to the actual ratings numbers with TOS. With few exceptions, they were always hard to find. I just wanted to point out that while reading " These Are The Voyages, Season One", that every episode has a detailed ratings breakdown as to how each episode performed in first-run, including what the numbers were for the shows that were up against the original series on those dates and times. That is all for now. |
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Post by CRAMBAM on Apr 22, 2014 6:12:16 GMT -5
Wow. That's actually been lost data. Curious how that compares with the other shows. I think despite beliefs to the contrary, TOS was seen by a much larger audience, because simply, there were fewer options in the 1960s.
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Post by StarFuryG7 on Apr 22, 2014 11:10:25 GMT -5
Wow. That's actually been lost data. Curious how that compares with the other shows. I think despite beliefs to the contrary, TOS was seen by a much larger audience, because simply, there were fewer options in the 1960s. Well, I'm only about four episodes in, so its when the series was first starting out, but the numbers that I've seen so far have it generally winning its timeslot, or tying with one of its competitors. The numbers are good though --we're talking about twenty million viewers per episode, or very close to it. So far "Bewitched" has been its chief competitor, but television was different back then in that "Prime-Time" scheduling usually began at 7:30 instead of 8:00. I wonder why that changed, as 8:00 has been the start of the weekly lineup of shows as far back as I can remember, even as a little kid. But TOS usually aired from 7:30 to 8:30, and because of that mid-hour scheduling, it was also rated on a half-hourly basis in terms of its performance, so it might have won its first half-hour, but then saw some drop-off during its second half-hour. What's also great and interesting about this book is that on the night's when new episodes were scheduled for airing, Cushman, the author, will start the section by telling you what the top songs were on that dated in the Top 40 Songs for the week, and will also reference whatever else might have been going on that was historically significant, so he's giving you a good overview of the times as well, not just regarding the original series. If you want, I can post an example of the ratings, as listed in this book, later. Let me know if I should bother. I'm just curious, but are you generally not interested in the making of the original series, and are therefore not interested in buying this book? Some people are like that I guess --they only care about the episodes themselves and not so much about how they were produced and made, but for me, I like knowing what was going through the minds of these people and what they were up against while trying to produce this series. I know a preview of this book can be downloaded from Amazon if you're interested in checking it out for free. You just need to install the free Kindle app to your device or PC and Amazon will send you a free preview of the book via email upon your request, so there's nothing to lose to check it out free of charge. I have no idea how large the Preview is though, since I simply purchased the Kindle version outright. |
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Post by CRAMBAM on Apr 22, 2014 13:37:51 GMT -5
It's not so much that I'm not interested but that I have a bunch of other books on the docket and it would take a long time before I get to it. Not that long ago, I decided to re-read all the Harry Potter books. I should be finishing book 7 this week. After that, there is a TOS/VOY crossover novel that I want to read. Seven somehow travels to the 23rd century. www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Original-Time-Like-ebook/dp/B00DPM7SNM/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398191073&sr=1-3&keywords=star+trek After that, I'm going to begin the long task of reading Game of Thrones. I may consider a book on sabermetrics before that, but Game of Thrones is on the docket. So this book might be a very long ways away. |
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Post by TrekBeatTK on Apr 22, 2014 16:30:40 GMT -5
It's not so much that I'm not interested but that I have a bunch of other books on the docket and it would take a long time before I get to it. Not that long ago, I decided to re-read all the Harry Potter books. I should be finishing book 7 this week. After that, there is a TOS/VOY crossover novel that I want to read. Seven somehow travels to the 23rd century. www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Original-Time-Like-ebook/dp/B00DPM7SNM/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1398191073&sr=1-3&keywords=star+trek After that, I'm going to begin the long task of reading Game of Thrones. I may consider a book on sabermetrics before that, but Game of Thrones is on the docket. So this book might be a very long ways away. I hear ya. I'm working through the Star Wars novels right now. And I'm itching to re-read Lord of the Rings. -TK |
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