Why Kirk Prime is alive, using MWI

[CRAMBAM]

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the Kirk that leaves the Nexus is not Kirk Prime according to your MWI hypothesis. But I believe there is evidence that shows that MWI is not always in play in past episodes where time travel was an issue. For instance, at the end of "Assignment: Earth", Kirk points out that the warhead detonated exactly when it was supposed to, thereby confirming that the Enterprise was always a part of what ended up happening on that day. (And the record doesn't lie. It proves they went back in time from the same place, and ended up in the right timeline.)

First, the Kirk Prime doesn't leave the nexus with MWI requires that you accept MWI as part of Star Trek. That's kind of the whole theory. I agree that Assignment Earth is a good example of how non MWI principles are used. One could say that Assignment Earth was a predestination paradox. You could argue Star Trek IV is similar. Either that, or in both cases, they ended up in a universe so similar and their affect was minimal.

But either way, ignore that for now, and let's just make it a given fact that for this particular purpose, we have to accept MWI.

So why doesn't Kirk Prime leave the nexus? It's actually simple. Who is Kirk Prime? Kirk Prime would be the Kirk of the prime universe. What is the prime universe? The prime universe is the universe that we the audience followed from 1966-2009.

Based on the time travel, and MWI, there are 2 universes in Generations. In the first universe, Picard loses his fight to Soran and winds up in the nexus.

In the second universe, Kirk wins the fight with Soran and dies. Everything in these 2 universes are exactly the same until Soran turns around and sees Kirk looking at him.

But while that fight is going on, the Kirk native to that universe is in the nexus.

THAT version of Kirk, is identical to the Kirk that died in every way, except that due to the actions of the Kirk that died, there was no one sent into the nexus to get him, and he's still chopping wood.

Why is THAT version of Kirk "Kirk Prime?"

Because from Generations on, we follow the lives and universe where Picard and Kirk won the fight and Soran lost.

That's the prime universe, and in that universe, Kirk is still in the nexus.

So that's why Kirk Prime is the one that did NOT exit the nexus. The Kirk that died is from the universe where Picard lost.

In "City On The Edge Of Forever", however, Spock's tricorder picks up two futures that it recorded from the Guardian --one in which Edith Keeler lives, and the future resulting from it, and one in which she does not survive, which was the way things were meant to play out. Interestingly enough, this could be viewed as an early example in Trek in which MWI could have been in play because there are two distinct timelines that are shown. However, the fact that Kirk allows Keeler to die in a traffic accident the way she was meant to indicates that there was only one timeline they were meant to live through, and that's the one in which Keeler had died. But the MWI angle remains vexing in it nevertheless though, because McCoy had apparently also saved Keeler previously, which was what altered time in the first place, making it necessary for Kirk and Spock to go back in time also in an effort to undo what he had done. So it's a true paradox because we never see that McCoy --the one that prevents Keeler from dying, but yet we know it happened because we see the timeline change at the beginning of the episode once he jumps through the Guardian and ends up in Depression era Earth. The Grandfather paradox is sort of in play obviously, since Kirk and Spock correct things by having gone back, with their preventing McCoy from saving Edith, but they ended up there because of what he had already done after having traveled back in time before them.

You should read the books I'm just finishing up now. A trilogy, written for the 40th anniversary, that deals with a lot of this stuff. McCoy, Spock, and Kirk, each get a book, and it follows their lives and how City on the Edge's events affected each of them. The first and longest book, Crucible McCoy, gives us a look at both McCoy's life in the right timeline and his life in the one where he saved Edith.

The second one is the Spock book, and the third is about Kirk, which I'm almost done with.

It's the Crucible series. Would love someone else to read them.

That's because Orci refused to commit to MWI so he could have his cake and eat it too, so it would have to be inferred by also taking into account objective, clear-cut differences between the prime universe and this new(er) continuity, which was also why he and Kurtzman decided to resort to it as a story device. Current theory also suggests and allows for the possibility that black holes are doorways to other universes, so it's not exactly grasping at straws. It has a real basis in current scientific theory and understanding.

We all agree on the idea that they wouldn't be specific so they could play both sides of the fence.

If MWI applies, then Pine's universe is simply another universe, like Mirror Mirror. Unlike Mirror Mirror, Kirk and crew are the good guys, but they are NOT the same characters we follow. So who cares?

If MWI doesn't apply, then the prime universe is deleted, and that's really a negative thing.

[StarFuryG7]

Jan 8, 2015 8:11:45 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

But either way, ignore that for now, and let's just make it a given fact that for this particular purpose, we have to accept MWI.
So why doesn't Kirk Prime leave the nexus? It's actually simple. Who is Kirk Prime? Kirk Prime would be the Kirk of the prime universe. What is the prime universe? The prime universe is the universe that we the audience followed from 1966-2009.
Based on the time travel, and MWI, there are 2 universes in Generations. In the first universe, Picard loses his fight to Soran and winds up in the nexus.
In the second universe, Kirk wins the fight with Soran and dies. Everything in these 2 universes are exactly the same until Soran turns around and sees Kirk looking at him.
But while that fight is going on, the Kirk native to that universe is in the nexus.
THAT version of Kirk, is identical to the Kirk that died in every way, except that due to the actions of the Kirk that died, there was no one sent into the nexus to get him, and he's still chopping wood.
Why is THAT version of Kirk "Kirk Prime?"
Because from Generations on, we follow the lives and universe where Picard and Kirk won the fight and Soran lost.
That's the prime universe, and in that universe, Kirk is still in the nexus.
So that's why Kirk Prime is the one that did NOT exit the nexus. The Kirk that died is from the universe where Picard lost.

This strikes me as very convoluted, and still unclear frankly, but if anyone reading this followed CRAM's post better than I did, please chime in and explain why.

One of the things that also strikes me as ...well, inaccurate about your reasoning on this, and if I'm misconstruing your intent, then I do apologize, but the two Kirk's you describe are actually the same person, with the MWI becoming an issue because there's a break in the timeline, and that's where the two universes in effect would split apart. This is if we apply MWI in "Generations" and assume that there are in fact two universes in play once Soran destroys Veridian III and gets inside the Nexus the way he wanted to. At the point at which Picard leaves with Kirk however, and thus puts a new universe in play by changing the outcome as a result of stopping Soran before he can launch his missile, the Kirk that leaves the Nexus with Picard is the exact same guy. The only difference between the two (assuming there is more than one for the sake of going along with your premise for the moment) is what happens next, once he takes on Soran and defeats him with the help of Picard, but with that victory coming at the expense and sacrifice of his own life.

This takes us back to the multiples of the same character existing within the Nexus supposedly, which I previously objected to however.

Jan 8, 2015 8:11:45 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

If MWI doesn't apply, then the prime universe is deleted, and that's really a negative thing.

Screw that I say, especially when they're are so many differences between the prime universe and the Abramsverse.

[CRAMBAM]

Technically, they are not the same person. There are 2 universes, completely identical, and they diverge at the point where in one universe, Picard fights Soran alone, and in the other, Kirk and Picard fight Soran together.

Likewise, if you go with MWI in the Abrams world, there are 2 universes, and at least as far as we are led to believe, they are identical, up until the point where Nero says, "what's up!"

" This is if we apply MWI in "Generations" and assume that there are in fact two universes in play once Soran destroys Veridian III and gets inside the Nexus the way he wanted to. At the point at which Picard leaves with Kirk however, and thus puts a new universe in play by changing the outcome as a result of stopping Soran before he can launch his missile, the Kirk that leaves the Nexus with Picard is the exact same guy. The only difference between the two (assuming there is more than one for the sake of going along with your premise for the moment) is what happens next, once he takes on Soran and defeats him with the help of Picard, but with that victory coming at the expense and sacrifice of his own life."

Yes, except that the Kirk that leaves the nexus is the Kirk from the universe where Picard lost the fight, NOT the Kirk that is from the prime universe. Time travel, according to MWI, can't change history--it results in a divergent universe. So there are now two universes in Generations--one where Picard lost the fight. The Kirk from THAT universe is the one that dies. There are two of them.

The Kirk native to the universe where Picard and Kirk win the fight is still in the nexus, because in the prime universe, Soran is defeated, and no one goes into the nexus to get Kirk.

With MWI, they are technically not the same person. There are 2 different Kirks, who lived in 2 different universes, which did not diverge until that fight with Soran.

Incidentally, if you really want to see how things could work without MWI, I highly recommend the Crucible Trilogy.

[StarFuryG7]

Jan 14, 2015 17:38:43 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

With MWI, they are technically not the same person. There are 2 different Kirks, who lived in 2 different universes, which did not diverge until that fight with Soran.

What are the odds of this though, aside from where is your evidence to support that contention?

The Mirror Universe, while the reverse of the prime universe, did indicate there was a certain symmetry between those two universes, granted. We saw exact opposites of the characters we already knew, also on a ship called Enterprise, visiting the same planet, and in the same region of space, at the same time as its counterpart, with McCoy Prime even pointing out that there was an acid stain on a table in the same spot as where he had spilled acid in his sickbay a year earlier. Likewise, TNG's "Parallels" indicated something similar regarding a multiverse existence and many ships inhabiting the same sector of space.

But even apart from the fact that the film doesn't in any way suggest or imply such a scenario, the odds of yet another parallel universe in which an all but identical Kirk ended up getting ejected into the Nexus at the exact same moment as Kirk Prime under nearly identical circumstances is nevertheless astronomically unlikely IMO, to say nothing of the fact that the other Kirk you're arguing also exists would have had to cross over from one universe into another once he entered the Nexus. I suppose you could try and get around that by arguing that the Nexus, as an aberrational anomaly, allows for it, but again, there's no evidence whatsoever to support such a contention.

Ideas like this can be a fun exercise to ponder and speculate about though I suppose. It's also what gives us fan productions like "Axanar" after all, but ultimately, this is all moot nevertheless. It's now more than twenty years since "Generations", and you're never going to get Shatner's Kirk back. Definitely not at this stage, which is what you're really interested in underneath it all IMO.

And have you seen Shatner in the latest Priceline commercial? My God ...I don't mean this to demean the man, I really don't, but he looks like he weighs three hundred pounds now, and sadly, I'm not joking. I'm pretty sure I caught it last night while watching Part 2 of the History Channel's "Sons of Liberty" and I was really taken aback by it. The guy should really go on a diet. For a man in his 80s, it might well be his being overweight that does him in more than anything else.

Jan 14, 2015 17:38:43 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Incidentally, if you really want to see how things could work without MWI, I highly recommend the Crucible Trilogy.

You mentioned this in your previous post, and I didn't mean to seem as though I was simply blowing it off by ignoring it, but it was very late as I recall and I had work in the morning and still wanted to reply to a post by TK. It sounds interesting, but I've kind of lost interest in Trek novels being that they have zero in the way of canon status. Maybe at some point I'll have a change of heart about that, but I've felt this way about the books for quite some time now, although I will make it a point to look into that particular trilogy out of curiosity.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[CRAMBAM]

If you go with MWI, the odds are 100 percent. I'm not saying the writers will do this, but it's a reality that comes with MWI.

With Abrams' crew no longer in charge, and Bad Robot completely gone, or at least it seems that way, who knows what they are going to do?

Pegg is writing the movie now.

The evidence in my theory is MWI itself, and how it parallels with what happened with ST09.

Weight can be lost as needed. That's what trainers are for. If Shatner was in the plans, that won't be an issue at all.

I think with Pegg working on the movie, it's just going to be a movie, not a special movie, so I have little hope for it.

The novels may not be canon, but they are usually much better stories than what we see IN canon.

[StarFuryG7]

Jan 31, 2015 17:40:50 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

If you go with MWI, the odds are 100 percent. I'm not saying the writers will do this, but it's a reality that comes with MWI.

Not necessarily, since Kirk either gets blown into the Nexus from aboard the Enterprise-B, or he doesn't. MWI doesn't automatically dictate that it has to happen more than once.

Jan 31, 2015 17:40:50 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

The evidence in my theory is MWI itself, and how it parallels with what happened with ST09.

But again, Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman didn't even take a stand as to whether MWI was actually in play in the film or not, even though you know my view about that, which is that it evidently was due to the differences between two Khans, along with other obvious differences between the two universes.


And I'm going to stop there, because it can be such a difficult, arduous task to write anything on this goddamn phone sometimes, such as right fucken now. :::Sigh:::

[CRAMBAM]

Not necessarily, since Kirk either gets blown into the Nexus from aboard the Enterprise-B, or he doesn't. MWI doesn't automatically dictate that it has to happen more than once.

Based on MWI, there are an infinite number of universes, and yes, there would in theory be an equal number of universes where Kirk gets blown into the nexus from the E-B or does not.

Likewise, there would be an infinite number of universes where Kirk gets blown into the nexus.

It's all a question of the point where 2 universes diverge.

In Generations, using MWI, both universes we saw had Kirk blown into the nexus.

But again, Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman didn't even take a stand as to whether MWI was actually in play in the film or not, even though you know my view about that, which is that it evidently was due to the differences between two Khans, along with other obvious differences between the two universes.

Well, they took a stand OFF screen, which I think we both can agree doesn't count. But the premise of this particular thread is accepting the off screen stance as a reality, and that in Star Trek, the MWI theory counts.

It need not be accepted beyond this thread, but if you buy into their off camera explanations of MWI, Kirk Prime did not die.

[TrekBeatTK]

I can't believe this roundabout debate is still going on.

-TK

[StarFuryG7]

Feb 9, 2015 18:23:11 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

In Generations, using MWI, both universes we saw had Kirk blown into the nexus.

In "Generations", Kirk and Picard correct the timeline and MWI is not an issue.

Feb 9, 2015 18:23:11 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

It need not be accepted beyond this thread, but if you buy into their off camera explanations of MWI, Kirk Prime did not die.

I just realized that Taylor never really died at the end of "Beneath Planet Of The Apes".

Not only that, but he didn't destroy the Earth either.

Phew --that really is an load off my mind. It's only been bothering me for over four decades.

[StarFuryG7]

Feb 9, 2015 22:55:09 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

I can't believe this roundabout debate is still going on.

-TK

Well, I haven't been around much either, which hasn't helped I suppose.

[CRAMBAM]

In MWI, you don't correct a timeline. You cross over into another universe and the universe you were from continues.

Kirk and Picard did not change anything. The universe where Picard lost the fight went forward. Kirk and Picard had their fight with Soran, where they won, in another universe, and in this universe, Soran was stopped. The universe where Soran was stopped is the prime universe.

A version of Kirk did die in Generations, but it wasn't Kirk PRIME.

In Planet of the Apes, there was no alternate universe involved.

[StarFuryG7]

Feb 10, 2015 18:59:25 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

In MWI, you don't correct a timeline. You cross over into another universe and the universe you were from continues.

Yeah, except that the history of the franchise shouldn't have to be up-ended in order to accommodate it, especially where it clearly wasn't the intent.

Feb 10, 2015 18:59:25 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

A version of Kirk did die in Generations, but it wasn't Kirk PRIME.

Marc, this is your own wild theory as opposed to what's established canon.

Guess which one wins out.

Feb 10, 2015 18:59:25 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

In Planet of the Apes, there was no alternate universe involved.

Let's not be too hasty about that, as Taylor travelled through a spatial anomaly that took him and his fellow astronauts, and then later Brent and his doomed captain, to where they all ended up. They assumed it to be a temporal distortion which catapulted them into the future, but it could have been a doorway to an alternate universe for all they all knew.

Just saying, dude.

Lol.

[CRAMBAM]

I don't think the history of the franchise would have to be upended at all.

Nothing of Generations would change. At no point after Generations was Kirk's death mentioned.

The last time we saw the nexus, it was passing over Veridian III. What MWI shows is that Kirk Prime was still in there.

It's not a wild theory. It's a realistic one, based on MWI.

Maybe you're right about MWI and POTA, but as far as I know, no time travel changed any events in any universe. Taylor went to the future, never returned. Unless of course, there is a universe where Taylor never arrived, and that universe would go on.

[StarFuryG7]

Feb 11, 2015 17:23:49 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

I don't think the history of the franchise would have to be upended at all.

Nothing of Generations would change. At no point after Generations was Kirk's death mentioned.

The last time we saw the nexus, it was passing over Veridian III. What MWI shows is that Kirk Prime was still in there.

It's not a wild theory. It's a realistic one, based on MWIu

What's wild is your insistence that it wasn't Kirk Prime who died, when the evidence indicates quite clearly that it was.

And MWI is Pandora's box if applied in the manner you suggest, because one can then start second-guessing virtually everything that's happened at various points in the prime timeline. Who's to say that Kirk, Spock and McCoy get returned to the right place at the end of "The City On The Edge Of Forever" for instance once they come back through the Guardian? The Guardian told them that if they were successful they would be returned, but who's to say it was the right universe and place rather than one that just appeared the same? That's the problem with MWI, and why you're falling back on it to say there were multiple Kirks that ended up inside the Nexus.

Feb 11, 2015 17:23:49 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Maybe you're right about MWI and POTA, but as far as I know, no time travel changed any events in any universe. Taylor went to the future, never returned.

Cornelius, Zira and Doctor Milo returned in his place, using his ship.

There were a number of continuity issues in the PotA films after the first movie because the various writers were just plain sloppy. It's one of the reasons the first movie was so great, with none of the sequels that followed ever being able to measure up to it.

[CRAMBAM]

It's not wild if you follow MWI.

It's all about defining the prime timeline.

The prime timeline is the timeline we the audience follow. If Kirk, Spock, and McCoy ended up in an identical but not the same universe, it wouldn't matter, because we followed that universe from then on, so that's the prime universe.

Ultimately, to our knowledge, nothing was different from the perspective of the universe that Kirk left to enter the Guardian, and the one he returned to, so it wouldn't matter.

However, in Generations, there were differences between the universe Picard left, and returned to.

The Kirk that died and Kirk Prime are from different universes but they had identical lives up until that point. In both universes, Kirk ended up in the nexus. Their lives diverge based on the events on Veridian III. In one universe, Picard loses the fight, gets Kirk, and enters the prime universe, and together they beat Soran. However, the prime universe's version of Kirk is in the nexus at that time, is completely unaware of what was going on, because Picard and his doppelganger beat Soran and never entered the nexus. That's not an echo.

I'm not saying MWI is the way Star Trek should work. On the contrary, I think it should work the way GR had it work, which was without MWI. However with MWI, Kirk Prime never dies.

And yes, I agree that the sequels were weak for POTA.

Even the remakes were eh to me. I didn't bother seeing the last one. I figure they are always the same--the apes always win.