Why Kirk Prime is alive, using MWI

[CRAMBAM]

It's no secret I've never been a fan of MWI as used by Bad Robot. While Parallels certainly shows that MWI is used in Star Trek, the way it is used to say the prime universe still exists never worked for me, because it was not explained in that fashion on screen. While of course Orci always has the right to prove that the prime universe exists by showing it, he hasn't, and that's going to remain a problem for me.

But for this purpose, let's play Orci's game. I believe that if you allow for MWI, as interpreted by Bob Orci, that Kirk Prime never died, and is still in the nexus.

Let's start by talking about the prime universe.

What is the prime universe?

My definition of the prime universe is that it's the universe a fourth wall thing. It's the universe that we the fans followed from 1966-2009, and contains everything in Star Trek during the Roddenberry and Berman eras.

That includes all the movies, DS9 and Voyager. I know Enterprise is impossible to reconcile, but it's also not important.

The prime universe includes everything we saw after Generations, including the adventures of the Enterprise E in FC, INS and NEM.

To get to the part where Kirk Prime is alive, let's start with a basic review of MWI as it was applied in ST09.

Nimoy was Spock Prime, the same Spock we followed, died with Khan, and left off on Romulus.

There are two universes. The prime universe is one, and the Abramsverse is another.

They were always two universes. Nero didn't CREATE one. The Abramsverse is the one where Nero arrived when he time traveled and destroyed Vulcan. The prime universe had no time traveling Nero, and Vulcan survived.

But up until that point, the two universes were identical. Nero's arrival is the point where their histories diverge.

The prime universe sent two people over to the Abramsverse in ST09, Spock Prime, and Nero.

But the Abramsverse had another Spock, who we will call Spock Quinto. Spock Quinto had a very different life than Spock Prime. He was more emotional, his mom died, and he nailed Uhura.

He is NOT Spock Prime. He is a different person, who has the same genetics. Maybe had Nero come a little later, Spock Quinto would have been more familiar, had a few identical experiences, but either way, he is not Spock Prime. If Spock Quinto dies, nothing happens to Spock Prime. If Spock Prime dies, nothing happens to Spock Quinto. They are separate people, as different as you and I, except they have the same fingerprints.

The prime universe meanwhile, is going along its merry way, with the characters we followed doing their thing, though Spock Prime is not there. Both universes are moving along, separately.

Now let's move on to Generations, another movie where there was time travel, and apply the same theories.

We all know what happened. Soran arrives on the E-D, creates havoc, and ends up on Veridian III where he and Picard have a one on one showdown.

Picard loses the fight, Soran wins, the E-D is destroyed, and everyone on the ship is killed.

Fortunately though, Picard enters the nexus, and finds Kirk, and learns that he can exit the nexus and arrive at any time. He decides in his stupidity to go back to a few minutes before, and learns that Kirk is in the nexus too.

So the two of them leave the nexus together, and travel back in time about 10 minutes and redo the fight.

Of course, we know that happens. After dialing 1-800 GET-KIRK, Kirk fights Picard's battle, kicks Soran's ass, and dies in the process.

But now let's look at it from the point of view of MWI, and compare it to ST09.

If we are to look at it from MWI, Kirk and Picard fought Soran in a different universe. There are now two universes that we are dealing with.

In Universe 1, Soran wins the fight, and ends up in the nexus with Picard.
In Universe 2, Soran loses the fight, and the nexus flies away.

These two universes were absolutely identical, up until the fight with Soran.

In Universe 1, there may be an Enterprise E, but no one from the TNG crew survived to serve on it.

In Universe 2, as in universe 1, everything we saw in Star Trek happened the same. Kirk ended up in the nexus after the incident on the Enterprise B.

Just like there were two Spocks in ST09, there were two Kirks in Generations.

The Kirk that was fighting Soran was the Kirk from universe 1. Picard lost the fight, so the Kirk that was fighting Soran was the one native to THAT universe.

The Kirk that was native to Universe 2 was still in the nexus.

The Kirk from Universe 1 was like Spock Prime, and traveled into another universe.

The Kirk from Universe 2 was like Spock Quinto, native to the universe, and a separate person from the Kirk from Universe 1. The only difference is that the two had identical lives and experiences up until the diverging point, which was Picard losing the fight.

Only one of those 2 Kirks died. The other one, the one native to Universe 2, remained in the nexus, because Picard and Soran never went in there.

So let's get back to the definition of the prime universe:

The prime universe is the universe that WE the audience follow. We did NOT follow the future of Universe 1. If we did, there would have been no FC, INS, NEM, etc., because all those characters died because Picard couldn't fight.

Universe 2 is the PRIME universe. All subsequent movies, DS9, VOY, and I guess Enterprise, took place THERE.

Therefore, Kirk PRIME is still in the nexus, alive.

No echo, ghost, or anything else. It's Kirk PRIME.

If the prime universe still exists, Kirk Prime is in the nexus.

[StarFuryG7]

Oct 24, 2014 8:01:06 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

It's no secret I've never been a fan of MWI as used by Bad Robot. While Parallels certainly shows that MWI is used in Star Trek, the way it is used to say the prime universe still exists never worked for me, because it was not explained in that fashion on screen. While of course Orci always has the right to prove that the prime universe exists by showing it, he hasn't, and that's going to remain a problem for me.

But for this purpose, let's play Orci's game. I believe that if you allow for MWI, as interpreted by Bob Orci, that Kirk Prime never died, and is still in the nexus.

Hold it. Before I go on reading this, I would like to have that clarified. What has Orci claimed with respect to that --that once Kirk entered the Nexus he was therefore always in the Nexus? Well, no --he wasn't, aside from the fact that we saw him exit with Picard, and then saw him die. Is it Orci's claim that Guinan never left the Nexus either? Well no, that doesn't work either, because it wasn't her inside the Nexus, simply an echo of her consciousness that remained --a pale shadow of who she was, but not her as a fully rounded entity and persona.

So right off the bat I see a major problem with the premise, and if I have to move forward with what amounts to an apparently false premise, it's an excercise in futility.

[CRAMBAM]

Orci has never commented anything about Kirk Prime.

But no matter how you slice it, Kirk Prime WOULD be in the nexus, because of time travel.

If you go by normal Star Trek, Spock Prime traveled back in time during his own life time, and there was naturally a past version of himself there.

That's Quinto.

There wasn't one Spock. There were two.

The past version and the present version.

On DS9, there was a time travel episode with 2 O'Briens and one of them died and I think it was the past version. Visionairy.

But the future version didn't die.

So in Generations, when Picard and Kirk exit the nexus, they didn't do so in the present, where there would be only one version of each character. If that were the case, they would have done exited the nexus at a point after Picard entered, but instead they exited at a point before.

The version of Kirk that fought Soran did so in the past, before Picard went into the nexus, and when that fight was going on, there was a version of Kirk in the nexus, native to that time.

When Kirk won the fight, he prevented the circumstances that would get him out of the nexus. He changed history.

So even without MWI, Kirk doesn't die.

And with MWI, Kirk PRIME doesn't die.

[StarFuryG7]

We know that "time has no meaning" inside the Nexus, so when Kirk and Picard stepped inside of it, they would have existed throughout all moments in time simulataneously. Theoretically anyway. However, once they exited from it to a moment in time of their choosing, they wouldn't have still been present throughout every moment in time within it. It would be like a door opening and closing, and once they left, that door providing access to them would have closed and been closed for good, until and unless they decided to go inside there again. The proof of this perception of its functionality is Guinan, as Picard could only interact with an echo of her personality that remained there, but which couldn't leave evidently, because she wasn't really there anymore.

So your starting premise is flawed in my opinion.

It's true that Picard originally entered the Nexus moments after he decided to reappear with Kirk to help him take down Soran and prevent him from launching his rocket, but they 'corrected' the original timeline and in effect overwrote it, as we had seen happen many times before in Trek, once they had stopped Soran from fully executing his plan.

[CRAMBAM]

Again, if you exist at all points in time, you would also exist from the point of view of yourself, after you leave, but forget that whole line of argument, and read what I said from the point of view of MWI.

No matter you slice it, Kirk Prime is alive.

If you use MWI, it works as described, because the Kirk native to the universe where Picard and Kirk won the fight never left the nexus.

If you go with overwriting the timeline, then at the point where Kirk and Picard fought Soran, Kirk's past self was in the nexus, and never came out because Kirk and Picard won the fight. It would be a paradox, but one no different than the time past O'Brien had a radiation sickness and future O'Brien did not.

[StarFuryG7]

Oct 31, 2014 16:18:36 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Again, if you exist at all points in time, you would also exist from the point of view of yourself, after you leave

Except that's obviously not the case with Guinan, and what she demonstrates in the film is that real-time versus infinity is the crucial variant at issue, because once she left and got pulled back to the Enterprise-C, she no longer existed at all points in time from within the Nexus. She's not in there anymore, which is why Picard couldn't meet up with her as though she were truly present.

But stepping aside from that for a moment, let us at least agree that the writers could do whatever the hell they want, thereby dictating the terms at issue in any particular story, even if it doesn't make sense ultimately. If they were to wish to assert that Picard and Kirk are ALWAYS in the Nexus, throughout time, after they stepped in there, they could do so as a means of bringing Kirk back, even if it doesn't truly make sense when scrutinized. But I'm going by the evidence of what was actually written for "Generations", and how it all plays out, and your interpretation simply does not hold up. For one thing, it would mean a limitless number of Kirks and Picards, which we know simply wasn't the intent of the writers. It would also mean an endless supply of Guinans for that matter, when the movie itself very clearly indicates otherwise. Hell, it would mean an endless supply of Sorans too for that matter, although what would any of the countless versions of him care once he got inside there, since getting inside the Nexus was his all-consuming objective throughout the first half of the film. But we saw, irrefutably, that Picard didn't meet the full and complete Guinan that he knew within the Nexus, nor could that echo of her leave with him once he decided to exit, as previously pointed out. So what does that leave us with? An interpretation and reading of the film that you're making, which simply doesn't hold up.

As for the multiple copies of O'Brien in DS9 ...to tell you the truth, I can't really remember the episode you speak of, not that it much matters, because you're drawing upon it for something you wish to read into "Generations" that apparently is not there in the film. In fact, another point of inconsistency, even with your alluding to the two O'Briens, is that there weren't two Picards seen in "Generations", even when he goes back to Veridian III from the Nexus in the moments before Soran is going to launch his rocket in order to stop him. Where is the original Picard in that scene, who originally blew into the Nexus at the moment the planet was also blowing up?

MWI would dictate that not only did the planet blow up right after Soran launched his rocket by the way, but that at the moment in which that happened, another [identical] universe continued to exist in which that did not occur, with that being one of the many, perhaps countless versions of that universe/reality that continued on existing, with Kirk and Picard having reappeared in one of those countless MWI planes of existence, but not the original. In other words, they wouldn't have gone back to where Picard had started from --not really, even though it all looked and appeared to be exactly the same, which is one of the traps of MWI scenarios, and why I tend not to particularly care for them as a literary device.

[CRAMBAM]

Guinan is completely irrelevant to everything.

There was no time travel when Guinan was pulled out of the nexus. She left at the same time she went in, and the circumstances where she went in were not altered.

Now if we were to go by the "they exist at all points in time" theory, there would indeed be an infinite amount of Kirks and Picards, intent or not--from the point of view of someone OUTSIDE the nexus. From the point of view of inside the nexus, there is only one. It's bad writing, but that's the way it is. If time has no meaning, then you're accessible and able to leave, even after you leave.

Just because Picard met Guinan's echo doesn't mean Guinan herself wasn't in there, and also, Guinan said the reason she couldn't leave was because she was already there. Generations also implied strongly that if you leave at a point where you are already there, you replace yourself, which is why there weren't 2 Picards. Kirk didn't have that problem because he exited at a time after he went into the nexus but before he exited. No Kirk to replace.

The incident with O'Brien shows that there are wacky things that happen with paradoxes without destroying everything.

MWI--means that the Soran scenario played out in two forms--one where he launches the rocket and wins, sending he and Picard into the nexus.

But another universe existed where Kirk and Picard appear out of nowhere and stopped Soran. You have it right. In both cases, we have 2 universes that play out exactly the same, until Soran looks up and sees Kirk standing in front of him.

The universe where Kirk and Picard win?

THAT is actually the prime universe, and the Kirk that died is the one from the universe where Soran won.

[StarFuryG7]

> Guinan is completely irrelevant to everything.

It's mindboggling that you think you can say that when clearly she's relevant to everything we're discussing here.

> There was no time travel when Guinan was pulled out of the nexus. She left at the same time she went in, and the circumstances where she went in were not altered.

That's irrelevant --she's either there throughout all eternity once she entered, as you're determined to argue, or she's not, simple as that.

> Now if we were to go by the "they exist at all points in time" theory, there would indeed be an infinite amount of Kirks and Picards, intent or not--from the point of view of someone OUTSIDE the nexus. From the point of view of inside the nexus, there is only one. It's bad writing, but that's the way it is. If time has no meaning, then you're accessible and able to leave, even after you leave.

You're completely disregarding the actions of those characters, their choices to leave, and what the evidence of the film clearly indicates once that's happened to another of the character's that wound up in there, but got pulled away.

> Just because Picard met Guinan's echo doesn't mean Guinan herself wasn't in there

Actually, no, you're wrong here too, because Guinan, as well as her echo, both state that the echo is merely a piece of her that had been left behind rather than the full monty. With that being the irrefutable case, as the film indicates it more than once, you have no argument --at least not the one you're determined to make here.

> and also, Guinan said the reason she couldn't leave was because she was already there.

Which indicates WHAT to you exactly? It's certainly not what you're trying to claim right now. On the contrary, it affirms what I've been saying since the outset: that there's ONLY ONE PERSON which exists, not infinite numbers of them just because they happened to wind up in the Nexus at some point. There's only one of her that exists outside the Nexus --JUST ONE, which is why her echo; the piece of her still lingering within the Nexus, can't leave, because she's not there to leave anymore.

> Generations also implied strongly that if you leave at a point where you are already there, you replace yourself, which is why there weren't 2 Picards.

That's what I would refer to as an example of bad writing actually, because it was Picard's intent to return to a moment just before Soran launches his rocket, but no matter how one slices it, there was a version of Picard that existed BEFORE he returned from within the Nexus, which is why there should have been two versions of him rather than just one. This is where your citing the example of the two O'briens would probably be the most appropriate in fact, but again, I'm not recalling the episode you're referencing there and only have a very vague recollection of it at best.

> MWI--means that the Soran scenario played out in two forms--one where he launches the rocket and wins, sending he and Picard into the nexus.
But another universe existed where Kirk and Picard appear out of nowhere and stopped Soran. You have it right.<

Except that's not exactly what I was arguing. In MWI theory, it isn't that Kirk and Picard would pop out of nowhere and change the course of events necessarily. That happened because they ended up in the anomaly and then left, with the intent of changing the course of events. In MWI theory, however, something would have gone wrong with Soran's plan; he would have miscalculated with the rocket launch, or would have in some way not taken everything about the Nexus and how it operates into account, which again, would amount to a miscalculation. In short, any number of things that could have gone wrong would have gone wrong somewhere along the way, which is why MWI theory is so aggravating, and why it stinks as a literary device.

But your overall reading of "Generations" simply isn't accurate in my view. You're arguing something that clearly wasn't even the intent of the writers to start with, and it just goes downhill from there given what evidence in the film indicates.

[CRAMBAM]

When it comes to MWI and Generations, Guinan didn't even have to be in Generations. Completely not important.

You're discussing two different arguments about Kirk. And yes, there is a real version of Guinan in the nexus as well, we didn't see her in Generations. Picard happened to find the echo.

At no point did they talk about a real version of Guinan not being there. The only reason she couldn't leave was because a version of her was out there. We learned later that when you exit the nexus at a point where you exist, you replace yourself, because if that weren't true, there would have been 2 Picards.

Bad writing happened throughout the movie, but that still explains why there were not 2 Picards.


Turning to MWI, which has nothing to do with the Guinan stuff....

What happened in Generations with Kirk exiting the nexus is exactly the same thing that happened with Spock Prime in ST09, if you follow MWI.

Kirk from the universe where Picard lost the fight exited into another universe where the events played out differently up until that point.

Kirk from the universe where Picard lost is the equal to Spock Prime.

Kirk from the universe where Kirk and Picard won, is the equal to Spock Quinto.

That Spock Quinto version--the one that was in the nexus when Picard and Kirk were fighting Soran, is STILL in the nexus.

[StarFuryG7]

> When it comes to MWI and Generations, Guinan didn't even have to be in Generations. Completely not important.

She helped steer Picard in the directions he needed to go and explained how the Nexus worked to him, so in that sense, she was important. And of course, it was also a way to work Whoopi Goldberg into the movie in a significant sense.

> And yes, there is a real version of Guinan in the nexus as well, we didn't see her in Generations. Picard happened to find the echo.

It really is looking to me as though this is where we should drop the conversation, but aren't you the one who's usually quick to point out that if its not shown on screen, or not alluded to in some way through dialogue, then it's not a part of the intended plot?

Clearly there was no other 'complete', full version of Guinan in the Nexus, and the writers even went out of their way to explain why, addressing it more than once during the film, both outside, as well as inside the Nexus. That you keep insisting what is contrary to that just illustrates how determined you are to ignore the movie in order to draw a conclusion that you wish to reach because it appeals to you.

> At no point did they talk about a real version of Guinan not being there.

Actually, they did. Guinan specifically spells out that she left only a piece of herself behind when she got pulled from the Nexus by the Enterprise-B. She never claims that she occupies two places at once, that she's both there on the Enterprise, as well as inside the Nexus simultaneously. If that was the intent of the writers, then that's what they would have said, but didn't--indicating instead something completely different than you're intent on arguing.

> Bad writing happened throughout the movie

But that was not one of the areas that they were somehow unclear. They were, in fact, very clear as to their intent there.

> but that still explains why there were not 2 Picards.

Not really --that was truly bad, sloppy writing. They basically had Picard go back to a moment in time when the past version of himself, as well as the present, should have been occupying the same place at the same time, with each meeting up with the other. The fact that they didn't leaves three possibilities, which are as follows: a) Picard and Kirk never left the Nexus, with Picard having only recreated a version of that moment in time, but it was just another simulation, such as his imagining he had a wife and children, and a home that they all occupied back on Earth, or Kirk reliving seven years earlier with his past love Antonia, who we never see, but only hear. Then there's possibility b), which is that he and Kirk did leave the Nexus, but wound up in a parallel universe rather than their own, which could explain why past Picard wasn't there, because in that universe, Soran is in the process of executing his plan without Picard's interference down on the planet, although we don't know how things played out for that to have been the end result up to that moment in time when Soran is getting ready to launch his rocket. Possibility c), which is the least likely of the three, and I'll explain why, is that Picard somehow had the ability to erase the past version of himself that initially goes down to Veridian III in order to try and stop Soran from executing the final step to his plan to get inside the Nexus, which is what you're arguing. The reason this prospect doesn't work at all is because it presents a paradox in that Picard never would have ended up inside the Nexus in the first place if he didn't go down to the planet to stop Soran to start with, and even beyond that, Picard wasn't in the Nexus once he exited it and went back to the moment of his choosing to stop Soran, so he shouldn't have had the ability to erase his past self. All of the above is why what the writers did there for that climactic battle by not including the past version of Picard is why it was slipshod, sloppy writing, or just lazy writing in which they realized the problem, but decided to sidestep and ignore it anyway.

> Turning to MWI, which has nothing to do with the Guinan stuff....

Guinan can't be left out of the equation. She was there to explain and show how the Nexus functioned as an anomaly, which rips your entire argument to shreds.

> What happened in Generations with Kirk exiting the nexus is exactly the same thing that happened with Spock Prime in ST09, if you follow MWI.
Kirk from the universe where Picard lost the fight exited into another universe where the events played out differently up until that point.<

That's not what the movie wants us to believe though. The movie wants us to believe that Picard returned to the moment where he could stop Soran in the prime universe...the very same universe where it all started, same as the way Kirk and Spock corrected the timeline by the end of "City On The Edge Of Forever", or any of numerous other examples set in the Prime timeline where time travel and correcting the timeline was the issue. As a film, they didn't want us to think or believe otherwise or it would have been indicated in some way, and we both know that regardless of which hacks worked on which script for whatever episode or film, they were more straightforward than Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman, who intentionally walked that fine line so as not to offer up the answer one way or the other in their first or second films. Hell, you even go out of your way to argue that the prime timeline was obliterated by them because they don't provide specific dialogue attesting to the fact that it's a parallel universe rather than the prime universe despite whatever else is in front of your eyes in their films, such as Khan not being the Khan we knew. So are you now finally arguing that the Prime universe was in fact not obliterated by the events in ST09?

This should be good.

[TrekBeatTK]

Nov 10, 2014 8:40:20 GMT -5 StarFuryG7 said:

> When it comes to MWI and Generations, Guinan didn't even have to be in Generations. Completely not important.

> At no point did they talk about a real version of Guinan not being there.

Actually, they did. Guinan specifically spells out that she left only a piece of herself behind when she got pulled from the Nexus by the Enterprise-B. She never claims that she occupies two places at once, that she's both there on the Enterprise, as well as inside the Nexus simultaneously. If that was the intent of the writers, then that's what they would have said, but didn't--indicating instead something completely different than you're intent on arguing.

There is definitely NOT a real Guinan in the Nexus. If there were, she would not have suggested Picard team up with Kirk. Picard's plan was "Guinan, come back with me!" If there were a "real" Guinan in there apart from the echo, she would have just said, "Okay, but you have to find the real me. I'm just an info-dump projection." Instead she says, and I quote, "I can't leave. I'm there already, remember?"

As far as the rest of the theory goes, I've stayed out of it because it really doesn't properly track. Even given the "Multiple universes/timelines" concept, this theory doesn't apply to Generations that way. Cram, you seem to think that there are only two possible timelines. The fact is, if we follow the same logic used to explain JJ Trek and "Parallels", there are MANY more universes created during this scenario and thus your "proof" of Kirk's on-going existence could be easily refuted since it seems to hinge on there only being a prime timeline and an alt-timeline. But I don't need the headache of explaining it.

-TK

[CRAMBAM]

Again, for purposes of MWI, Guinan means nothing.

It's two completely separate and distinct theories.

MWI has nothing to do with Guinan.

GUINAN ISSUE:

Yes, if it's not shown on screen, it's not canon, but there are certain things that involve logic that don't have to be shown on screen. Logical arguments like Khan must have met Chekov off screen in something we didn't see.

The Guinan argument is an extension of what happens when we deal with the nexus as it was presented to us.

But of course the topic here is MWI, which is separate. So for purposes of the rest of the post, I'll stick with that, and not respond to the weak writing and loopholes had ST09 not existed.

You don't need only 2 timelines. There are many timelines, as Parallels shows.

That's fine, but not important.

In ST09, and 99 percent of Star Trek, we essentially only follow one timeline.

Before ST09, we followed the prime universe.

After ST09, we followed the Abramsverse, and Spock Prime, as far as we know, is the only person from the prime universe in the Abrams timeline.

While there are certainly other timelines, as parallel universes exist, the only 2 universes we are dealing with currently are the prime and the Abrams universes.

But using Abrams' own logic, the exact same thing happens in Generations.

I don't care what the intent of the movie was--that's not important. If you follow MWI, and the "real" theories behind it, Kirk Prime is alive, and in Generations, we followed 2 universes.

If MWI means that when you time travel, you move to another universe and the original universe you came keeps on going no matter what you do in the other timeline.

There is only one prime universe, and that's the one we followed. There would be MANY universes exactly like the prime universe, but they wouldn't BE the prime universe.

The Abramsverse is not the prime universe, if you buy into that.

Generations is EXACTLY the same as ST09, but on a much smaller scale.

When Picard and Kirk time traveled, they were in a different universe. In the original universe we watched, Picard lost the fight, the E-D was destroyed, while Soran and Picard were launched into the nexus.

If you follow MWI, that universe where Soran won still continues and Kirk and Picard do nothing to change that.

Rather, they now exist in a universe where Soran was stopped.

In that new universe, the Kirk indigenous to that new universe never leaves the nexus.

The two universes were identical up until the point where Soran turns around and sees Kirk staring at him.

At that point, the Kirk who died was like Spock Prime--a visitor from another universe. The Kirk in the nexus was like Spock Quinto--the native to that universe.

Kirk from the universe that Picard loses the fight dies.

Kirk from the universe where Kirk and Picard win the fight never leaves the nexus.

Since we continue on with the universe where Soran was stopped, I would argue that THAT universe, is the prime universe, not the one where Picard loses the fight. Therefore, Kirk Prime is alive.

[StarFuryG7]

> GUINAN ISSUE:
Yes, if it's not shown on screen, it's not canon, but there are certain things that involve logic that don't have to be shown on screen. Logical arguments like Khan must have met Chekov off screen in something we didn't see.

In the case of Chekov, it was obviously implied.

Where was it implied that Guinan is still in the Nexus despite their going out of their way to declare otherwise in the actual film?

> The Guinan argument is an extension of what happens when we deal with the nexus as it was presented to us.

And you clearly got it all wrong.

> But of course the topic here is MWI, which is separate.

There's MWI, and there's the Nexus and how it works, and we know how it works thanks to Soran, Guinan, and everything else as depicted and played out in the movie.

> If you follow MWI, that universe where Soran won still continues and Kirk and Picard do nothing to change that.
Rather, they now exist in a universe where Soran was stopped.
In that new universe, the Kirk indigenous to that new universe never leaves the nexus.

But they did leave, and if you follow MWI and subscribe to the theory that they ended up in a parallel universe, they're gone from the original prime universe for that reason.

Now, we could take this to the more extreme end of MWI theory, which posits that multiple universes are always being created, branching off all the time from a mainline universe like this one, but that hairy proposition applies to every one of us and every decision we make wherein we could have chosen to do something different than the choice and path we took, which is zany for a whole host of reasons, but then that would apply to ALL characters in "Star Trek", not just Kirk, and we're talking specifically about "Generations" and the Nexus and how it functions. That's a whole different ball of wax from saying Guinan and Kirk and Picard are still in the Nexus and are always in the Nexus because that's how the Nexus works when it isn't, and we know it isn't because of what's laid out in the film about it. So what you're talking about is a scenario that's different than "Generations" and are looking to apply concepts to it that the film doesn't go into and doesn't address because they're not part of the plot. The plot as laid out is that Picard goes back and confronts Soran and stops him where he couldn't the first time. It's the prime universe and timeline corrected rather than remaining corrupted because of Soran and his actions.

So basically, if you want to apply MWI theory to "Generations", then it applies to everything else in Trek where time travel and parallel universes were an issue for that matter, and there was no real point, in say, Kirk and Spock going back in time to stop McCoy from saving Edith Keeler in "City On The Edge Of Forever" because the prime universe and timeline has been hopelessly corrupted, and they'll never make it back to the timeline they started from no matter what.

That's MWI for you.

You're basically looking to apply the MWI of "Source Code" to all of "Star Trek" retroactively, when that wasn't the intent behind the vast majority of the stories that involved time travel or parallel universes. Hell, tell me what was the point of the original cast going back to 20th century Earth in ST IV to retrieve a couple of whales to repopulate the species in their time if it were given that they wouldn't have been able to return to the same place?

And that's one of the many problems with MWI as a literary device, and why it stinks.

> Since we continue on with the universe where Soran was stopped, I would argue that THAT universe, is the prime universe, not the one where Picard loses the fight. Therefore, Kirk Prime is alive.

There's a term for this, and it's called fanon.

For one thing, that's not what the movie wants us to believe, so you're drawing a conclusion of your own not based on the film.

It's also rather asinine in that you want us to believe that it doesn't start out in the prime universe in effect, but ends up there.

Huh?

So everything that we saw up to that point wasn't really our Kirk or our Picard therefore, but when the two of them emerge from the Nexus at the end of the film, they're in the right place?

The whole thing is just absurd.

[CRAMBAM]

With Guinan, if you're in the nexus, and exist at all points in time, then from the point of view of someone outside of the nexus, you are always in the nexus. The nature of the beast is that you are in there from at all points of time, which would necessarily include before you enter, and after you leave.

As for MWI, it's not absurd, it's MWI.

These are the "real" scientific theories that Bad Robot uses to justify that the prime universe still exists. There is nothing absurd about them.

"But they did leave, and if you follow MWI and subscribe to the theory that they ended up in a parallel universe, they're gone from the original prime universe for that reason."

You are correct, except that what is the prime universe? The prime universe is the universe that we the audience followed until 2009. Changing universes, if you use MWI, happened several times in Trek. You could argue in Yesterday's Enterprise, there is a universe where Tasha died and no version of Sela was born.

The prime universe is just a designation. The definition is based on what the audience follows.

In Generations, we experienced 2 timelines, but only one of them is the prime universe. These 2 universes were completely identical up until the point where Kirk from one universe appears in the other. Every event of Generations would be the same, up until that point, where Picard and Kirk from the universe where Picard lost the fight, fight Soran.

The universe where Picard lost the fight? We never see it again, but according to MWI, it continues on.

And yes, MWI messes up a lot of time travel episodes, but from the audience's point of view, we only follow one of them. One timeline, as it works out, and if time travel affects it, so be it.

In the PRIME universe, Kirk never leaves the nexus, because an alternate version of him stopped the events that would have caused Picard to find him.

It's not fanon, it's a correct interpretation of MWI, as it was intended to be used by Bad Robot. If MWI is used for ST09, it has to be used for everything, and Kirk Prime would be alive.

And even if you don't use MWI, then Kirk's victory over Soran creates a paradox where Kirk never leaves the nexus.

In BOTH interpretations of time travel, there is a real and original version of Kirk Prime still in the nexus.

[StarFuryG7]

> With Guinan, if you're in the nexus, and exist at all points in time, then from the point of view of someone outside of the nexus, you are always in the nexus. The nature of the beast is that you are in there from at all points of time, which would necessarily include before you enter, and after you leave.

Wrong. I have addressed this more than once here and it's become tiresome. If people were still accessible after they left, meaning the whole enchilada of what constitutes any given person, body and soul, then that would have been indicated in "Generations", but it wasn't, which is why the concept of an echo is very relevant, because it proves you to be incorrect on this point without any question.

And TK cut right to the heart of it the other day when he pointed out that Guinan could only direct Picard to Kirk for the help he needed to stop Soran. She didn't tell him to travel Northeast into the Nexus to find the full and complete version of her so he wouldn't need Kirk.

And the clear reason for that was because she couldn't.

> As for MWI, it's not absurd, it's MWI.

MWI is arguably absurd as a concept, and remains only a wild, unproven theory. I posted an io9 article link to the SciFi Scroll just last night that speculates as to whether some evidence has actually been found which supports it, but it remains a very open question nevertheless, with no conclusive proof one way or the other.

> These are the "real" scientific theories that Bad Robot uses to justify that the prime universe still exists.

No, Marc, actually they don't. They've tried to play cutesy with it by walking a very fine line while talking out of both sides of their mouths regarding it, but have failed to provide concrete evidence that it's actually in play one way or the other in either of their two films, which is why they'll say things like "the prime universe remains intact" and "no, it has been erased if that's the way the film strikes you", which is not taking a definitive position at all in actuality, and is why we have repeatedly criticized them over the last five years as wanting to have their cake and eat it too. In fact, the closest you can get to their pointing to MWI as being in play in either film is Uhura's using the term "alternate reality" in their first movie, and we've been all over that God knows how many times prior to now.

> You are correct, except that what is the prime universe? The prime universe is the universe that we the audience followed until 2009. Changing universes, if you use MWI, happened several times in Trek. You could argue in Yesterday's Enterprise, there is a universe where Tasha died and no version of Sela was born.

And for that matter, you could just as easily argue that Spock stayed dead following ST III even though there was no time travel involved --might as well, because that too is MWI, which is why it's such a slippery slope, and not a good literary device most of the time.

> The prime universe is just a designation. The definition is based on what the audience follows.

Of course, but there's a reason for that obviously, as it's the mainline universe that we're concerned with that matters, otherwise there would be no point in trying to correct any timeline in which something has gone seriously wrong and needs to be corrected, such as in "City On The Edge Of Forever", although granted, the crew that beamed down to the planet with the Guardian would have been stranded there had they not tried to correct the timeline by going back to Depression Era Earth to stop McCoy from doing what he did that changed history, but that's sort of beside the point, because as I said to you yesterday, they would not have been returning to the same place, whereas the episode clearly wants us to believe that they did return to the right place by having corrected the timeline. Arguably this is why Spock Prime didn't try to change things in ST09 after he went back in time in the Jellyfish, because he knew it couldn't be done, but that's also contrary to the Spock we know and what he would have done and how he would have approached other situations prior to that point where time travel had been an issue, which is why trying to apply MWI across the board is so precarious, and why it should be rejected.

Look, I told you last week, there's nothing stopping the studio and whatever writers it may happen to commission for any given project from doing whatever the hell they want, even if it's bad writing, even if it doesn't stand up to scrutiny, but just because they have the power to do that doesn't automatically make it a good idea, just like killing off Kirk in the first place wasn't a good idea. And just look now at the lengths you're willing to go to in your own mind to see it undone.

> The universe where Picard lost the fight? We never see it again, but according to MWI, it continues on.

According to the theory, not according to the film. According to the movie, Picard fixes what's wrong and sets things straight, or there'd be no point in attempting to do so. Same as with "Yesterday's Enterprise", where he takes a giant leap of faith on Guinan's word in order to set things right. It was a timeline that Picard hadn't lived through --his life and experiences were entirely different once the Enterprise-C travelled through that anomalous cloud into the future and altered history, and we actually saw the timeline change right before our eyes at the moment it culminated into fruition. If you proceed strictly according to MWI theory, there was no point in sending the Enterprise-C back to confront the Romulans, because it would all be in vain.

> And yes, MWI messes up a lot of time travel episodes, but from the audience's point of view, we only follow one of them. One timeline, as it works out, and if time travel affects it, so be it.

But you're saying that Picard ends up in the correct prime timeline at the end of the movie, when in actuality, he would have ended up somewhere else --one of many different, countless alternate universes. Who are you to say it's the right one, the prime universe? Who are you to decide that?

That's why it's fanon.

> In the PRIME universe, Kirk never leaves the nexus, because an alternate version of him stopped the events that would have caused Picard to find him.

Wild supposition with no supporting evidence.

> It's not fanon, it's a correct interpretation of MWI, as it was intended to be used by Bad Robot.

On the basis of what by Bad Robot exactly? MWI is never even mentioned in their films, with the closest they get to citing it being Uhura's "alternate reality" line on the bridge. In fact, Orci is on record as saying that the film was designed to be looked at either of two ways, with one being a parallel universe in play, OR as the original timeline having been undone and replaced. So they want it both ways, but we've known that since the beginning, and yours is not a correct interpretation because you're looking to apply it to a film where it wasn't the intent. The intent of Moore and his colleagues was to fix a disrupted timeline, and by the end of the movie, it was fixed.

Roll credits.

> And even if you don't use MWI, then Kirk's victory over Soran creates a paradox where Kirk never leaves the nexus.

You insist on making assumptions about what's inside the Nexus with no evidence to support it.

> In BOTH interpretations of time travel, there is a real and original version of Kirk Prime still in the nexus.

The whole point of seeing Kirk die in that film was to witness his final fate. There was no ambiguity about it, and no evidence that there's another Kirk inside the Nexus just waiting to be plucked out. The film was in fact intentionally designed to convey the opposite.

[CRAMBAM]

You can say it's wrong all you want, but from the point of view of someone outside the nexus, everyone in the nexus, is always in the nexus.

MWI may be a theory, but it's one that Bad Robot uses to say that the prime universe exists. It's one that Bad Robot has discussed constantly. They have never said that the prime universe is gone. True, they haven't used it in film since, and that's a bad decision, but this is what they say, and if you apply their concepts to Generations, then Kirk Prime is alive.

Look, I know they didn't establish on screen that the prime universe exists. I consider that a separate topic.

What I am saying, is that if you buy into their reasoning, and apply it, without a double Kirk Prime didn't die.

You can't say that Spock Prime stayed dead because we saw that he was revived in ST3. That's the prime universe. Parallels would indicate that there are plenty of universes where he was not restored, and stayed dead, but that wouldn't be the PRIME universe.

The prime universe is the universe that the Guardian returned Kirk, Spock and McCoy to after City on the Edge, though there is a universe where McCoy saved Edith.

I don't disagree that MWI shouldn't be applied at all, but if it is, then by definition, Kirk PRIME has to still be alive.

Based on MWI, the universe that we saw continues on in Yesterday's Enterprise, and nothing changed for that Picard when the E-C went through the wormhole. But the Prime Universe is where we saw the effects of that episode, and status quo restored.

The Enterprise C started in a universe where that battle wasn't fought, but when they were in Picard's past, they ended up fighting that battle in the prime universe.

At the end of Generations, Picard ends up in the timeline where Soran is stopped, and Kirk Prime remains in the nexus. I'm not the one to say that's the prime universe. Paramount is, by continuing the story in First Contact with that version of Picard and crew, and not a completely new crew, because Riker and company died on Veridian.

MWI is all the evidence you need to have Kirk alive.

But even if you didn't have that, and used more traditional Star Trek, Kirk and Picard traveled to a point before Picard entered the nexus, Kirk's past self was in there, while Kirk's future self died, preventing Picard from getting his past self out of the nexus. So either way, he's still in there.

Whether they tried to witness Kirk's final fate or not, there is a loophole big enough to drive a truck through, and there is plenty of ambiguity. The film did not convey the opposite. It's very easy to show Kirk is still in there.

[StarFuryG7]

> You can say it's wrong all you want, but from the point of view of someone outside the nexus, everyone in the nexus, is always in the nexus.

Fine --you keep insisting that Guinan is in two places at once even though the movie clearly indicated otherwise after she was pulled out of that anomaly.

Have It your way regardless. I don't care at this point, and if by chance there happens to be a weasel whispering in your ear in an effort to jerk my chain, shame on you for going along with it.

[CRAMBAM]

Again, the whole Guinan thing is irrelevant to MWI, which Bad Robot follows.

It's not about anything whispering in any ear.

It's about logic, applied, which shows that based on the logic of ST09, Kirk Prime is alive and in the nexus.

[StarFuryG7]

Why are you trying to re-ignite this whole thing a week and a half later when it's abundantly clear that we don't agree and aren't going to change each other's mind?

You're ignoring the film in order to reach the conclusion you want to reach, so this is pointless.

[CRAMBAM]

I was busy. I'm not ignoring the film at all. I'm applying MWI logic to it, and it's very clear.

[StarFuryG7]

If it were so clear, why did it take you twenty years to finally realize it?

[CRAMBAM]

Because I never thought about it in terms of MWI before, which is really a recent concept within Star Trek.

I've always felt that there was a paradox with the nonMWI way of looking at it, but to fully analyze Generations through MWI rules, and realize that Kirk Prime is 100 percent alive, is new.

[StarFuryG7]

Yeah, right --whatever. It's a misreading of the film nonetheless. That wasn't the intent of the writers, and the evidence in the film doesn't support it.

[CRAMBAM]

But that's not relevant. Who cares what their intent was? They are no longer involved in Star Trek, and that movie had plenty of plotholes.

The current intent is that MWI is how things work in Star Trek, and if that is how time travel is interpreted, then as applied to Generations, Kirk Prime is alive.

[StarFuryG7]

You have no evidence, just a theory, and what evidence there is doesn't support your theory.

And I don't agree with your assertion that original intent doesn't matter. That's like saying Berman and Braga were justified in ignoring canon and botching things that were already established in the original series when they produced "Enterprise".

Not to mention that Orci and Kurtzman weren't even specifically clear that MWI was actually in play in their last two films as opposed to the original timeline having been rewritten, the latter of which you repeatedly not only acknowledged yourself, but obstinately stuck to for the longest time --years in fact, until only just recently, long after their second film was released, left theaters, came out for home video, and is almost a distant memory at this point. So you're not even consistent with respect to your own beliefs, so I don't know why you would expect to be taken seriously at this late stage of the game.

You're about as credible as Roberto Orci talking out of both sides of his mouth.

[CRAMBAM]

Actually, I have as much evidence as the writers do that the prime universe still exists. If MWI is how they are playing it, then it works perfectly.

It's not IGNORING canon. Ignoring canon would be killing a character that didn't die, like Valtane in Flashback.

I agree that within the canon of ST09, Orci and Kurtzman were very vague, and we also are well aware that they have, off camera, stated that MWI is in play.

The whole premise of this thread isn't that MWI is how things work--it's that if MWI was the way it goes, then Kirk Prime is without question, alive and in the nexus.

I'm not saying that's how Star Trek should work, or does work. I'm saying these writers, who have held the franchise, have set themselves up to use that theory.

They have never backed up MWI in canon, and the only way to do so is to have Picard or someone else from the prime universe show up. Or have a line in a movie.

That would conclusively prove that MWI is how they are running things and that the prime universe still exists.

The reason, I have for years felt that the prime universe was wiped is because in order to change how time travel works in Star Trek, it would require some kind of real dialogue that's clear.

Something that would say that Spock Prime didn't just travel in time, but to another universe.

In that absence, I am forced to presume that despite off camera interviews, one cannot use MWI in Star Trek.

However, if the writers wanted to bring in Kirk Prime, then they could have a reason to bring back the prime universe and apply everything they talked about in those interviews.

And IF you apply MWI, which is the whole premise, then Kirk Prime, the Kirk that we followed, is in the nexus, alive.

[StarFuryG7]

>>Actually, I have as much evidence as the writers do that the prime universe still exists. If MWI is how they are playing it, then it works perfectly.<<

Why did it take you so long to arrive at a conclusion you could just as easily have reached five years ago?

>>It's not IGNORING canon. Ignoring canon would be killing a character that didn't die, like Valtane in Flashback.<<

If you're talking about your idea as to how Kirk can return, then I would argue they would be ignoring canon on a number of fronts with respect to what was done in "Generations", even though as I've said to your previously, the writers can do anything whether it contradicts established canon or not. That doesn't in itself mean that whatever they do would be a good idea necessarily, only that they've been given the power and authority to do it by the studio, whether it makes sense or not.

>>The whole premise of this thread isn't that MWI is how things work--it's that if MWI was the way it goes, then Kirk Prime is without question, alive and in the nexus.<<

That's quite arguable since we saw him definitively, indisputably leave the Nexus and go to his death. And I do not buy that there would be endless copies of Kirk, Picard and Guinan running around within the Nexus. You keep insisting this without any solid basis to support that contention. Soran got pulled from the Nexus at the beginning of the film, which was why he was so desperate to get back in there. So it is possible to leave, or get extracted from within it obviously. That's why you have no case. And Guinan serves as further evidence attesting to that because clearly only a fragment of her essence remained. You insist that, no, she's really in there supposedly --all of her, and yet the film went out of its way to make clear that such was not the case. And yet you remain adamant and unwavering nonetheless, which shows that facts are of no interest to you and don't matter, and now you're even willing to jettison original intent by previous writers and deem it as irrelevant in order to bolster your argument, which is ridiculous. If original intent doesn't matter, then there's no point in watching--or reading--anything.

>>They have never backed up MWI in canon, and the only way to do so is to have Picard or someone else from the prime universe show up. Or have a line in a movie.
That would conclusively prove that MWI is how they are running things and that the prime universe still exists.<<

Yeah, but they won't. It's remarkable you haven't figured that out by now. They think they were especially brilliant for having handled things this way, and they're simply not going to give that up at this point. They had two films to do so and refused to, and that's not going to change evidently.

>>The reason, I have for years felt that the prime universe was wiped is because in order to change how time travel works in Star Trek, it would require some kind of real dialogue that's clear.<<

But as I pointed out to you a very long time ago, not long after we saw their first film, no one has ever traveled through a black hole before in "Star Trek", except for V'Ger, and that could well explain why what happened in ST09 in terms of time travel into the past wasn't consistent with most of the time travel we had seen previously in the Trek universe. Current speculation about black holes includes the theory that they are perhaps also doorways to other universes, which is sufficient explanation in itself as to why the Narada and Jellyfish ended up somewhere other than the universe their crews had come from originally. In fact, Nero looks stupid for not even considering that possibility, unless he did, and figuring it was the same past as the one he had come from, decided to go through with his plan to destroy Vulcan anyway in order to save Romulus. That isn't specifically addressed in the film however, nor by Spock Prime, who if anyone would have figured out that it was actually a splintered-off universe from the one he came from, it would have been him. And yet something so simple and straightforward is never even addressed in the film, and it was handled that way by the writers purposefully, so as not to be definitive about MWI actually being in play.

>>In that absence, I am forced to presume that despite off camera interviews, one cannot use MWI in Star Trek.<<

But now you have decided to embrace it obviously in order to come up with a reason that interestingly enough arranges things so that Kirk is always available to return without ever truly dying. I've known you've been obsessed with Kirk having been killed off in "Generations", but this truly takes the cake. But even if I thought it a nifty theory, I can't see my way through it cleanly enough to be able to go along with it because so many things in "Generations" contradict it as even being a possibility. Kirk left the Nexus; we saw it. He died shortly afterward as a result of his decision to do so; we saw it. Guinan was not wholly still within the Nexus after having been pulled from it by the Enterprise-B; we saw it. Her echo makes clear that the full and complete version of her is already outside the Nexus the way she was meant to be; we saw it. All of these things taken together mean something, though clearly not what you've been trying to argue.

>>However, if the writers wanted to bring in Kirk Prime, then they could have a reason to bring back the prime universe and apply everything they talked about in those interviews.
And IF you apply MWI, which is the whole premise, then Kirk Prime, the Kirk that we followed, is in the nexus, alive.<<

No, Marc, he left, and he died, regardless of how much that sucked. And he wouldn't still exist 'at all points in time' after that happened because once he exited the Nexus the doorway that would allow that possibility (if it even were to exist in the first place, which is quite arguable in itself) had closed. It's not all that different from the universe being safe while the two Lazarus opposites were stuck in the corridor in "The Alternative Factor", but unsafe once the two of them were out of it. The Nexus is an anomaly don't forget, just like that corridor in that original series episode. It's not a perfect analogy obviously, but I hope you get the point nevertheless.

[TrekkieELO]

Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness are another completely different parallel/MWI universe which might have already existed, otherwise Spock Prime would not even exist anymore as he had his original timeline memories still intact, then also Khan being a White Brit, where in these new films or past canon do they explain how both of those things happened, hmmm, that's right, because we never saw those explainations onscreen either, thus your problem with Orci doesn't make any sense, so there!

[CRAMBAM]

If you don't buy into MWI, that wouldn't be necessarily true, as the time traveler is rarely affected by the time travel. That's been shown true before Orci tried to throw the MWI at us. City on the Edge, that episode where future O'Brien talked to his past self, and First Contact are some examples of the time traveler not being affected by the timeline changes.

As to why it took so long, I can't answer that. Before Einstein thought of the theory of relativity, he hadn't. It's a new way of looking at a problem.

If Star Trek truly used MWI, then that would apply across the board in the franchise, and all time travel would work that way, and that would include reconciling Star Trek with past time travel escapades, and yes, that includes Generations.

We saw Kirk leave the nexus, but if you apply MWI, that version of Kirk was NOT Kirk Prime. He was a version of Kirk from a universe identical in every way to the prime universe except the Kirk that exits is from the universe where Picard lost his fight to Soran. Kirk PRIME is from the universe where Soran lost.

If you apply time travel in a way similar to the way it was applied before ST09, then MWI does not apply, and the prime universe is gone. If that's the case, then Kirk Prime's only chance is that the nexus protected him from the changes. There would be a version of Kirk Prime in the nexus due to a paradox created when Soran was stopped before Picard went into the nexus.

Nothing in the movie suggests that the black hole was any other form of time travel, nor does it suggest that the prime universe still exists. The only data we have on the prime universe is Orci and Abrams saying so. It's not enough of course, but the whole exercise is what happens IF Abrams and Orci DO successfully inject MWI in the franchise.

I don't feel MWI should count, but IF one were to apply the principles to Generations, then conclusively, Kirk Prime is alive.

[StarFuryG7]

Apologies for not responding to this a little sooner . . .

Dec 15, 2014 16:38:29 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

If Star Trek truly used MWI, then that would apply across the board in the franchise, and all time travel would work that way, and that would include reconciling Star Trek with past time travel escapades, and yes, that includes Generations.

We saw Kirk leave the nexus, but if you apply MWI, that version of Kirk was NOT Kirk Prime. He was a version of Kirk from a universe identical in every way to the prime universe except the Kirk that exits is from the universe where Picard lost his fight to Soran. Kirk PRIME is from the universe where Soran lost.

If you apply time travel in a way similar to the way it was applied before ST09, then MWI does not apply, and the prime universe is gone.

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that the Kirk that leaves the Nexus is not Kirk Prime according to your MWI hypothesis. But I believe there is evidence that shows that MWI is not always in play in past episodes where time travel was an issue. For instance, at the end of "Assignment: Earth", Kirk points out that the warhead detonated exactly when it was supposed to, thereby confirming that the Enterprise was always a part of what ended up happening on that day. (And the record doesn't lie. It proves they went back in time from the same place, and ended up in the right timeline.)

In "City On The Edge Of Forever", however, Spock's tricorder picks up two futures that it recorded from the Guardian --one in which Edith Keeler lives, and the future resulting from it, and one in which she does not survive, which was the way things were meant to play out. Interestingly enough, this could be viewed as an early example in Trek in which MWI could have been in play because there are two distinct timelines that are shown. However, the fact that Kirk allows Keeler to die in a traffic accident the way she was meant to indicates that there was only one timeline they were meant to live through, and that's the one in which Keeler had died. But the MWI angle remains vexing in it nevertheless though, because McCoy had apparently also saved Keeler previously, which was what altered time in the first place, making it necessary for Kirk and Spock to go back in time also in an effort to undo what he had done. So it's a true paradox because we never see that McCoy --the one that prevents Keeler from dying, but yet we know it happened because we see the timeline change at the beginning of the episode once he jumps through the Guardian and ends up in Depression era Earth. The Grandfather paradox is sort of in play obviously, since Kirk and Spock correct things by having gone back, with their preventing McCoy from saving Edith, but they ended up there because of what he had already done after having traveled back in time before them.

I don't think MWI was so clearly in play, or in play at all in " Assignment: Earth" by comparison, even though time travel was clearly an issue, with the episode revolving around it, both with the Enterprise having gone back in time to Earth's past, as well as Gary Seven, who came from God knows when in the future.

For that reason, it would be difficult to know when MWI would apply, and when it doesn't in Trek. However, trying to compare the original prime timeline to the new alternate reality of the Abrams movies is truly trying to compare apples and oranges, whether Orci and Kurtzman chose to be definitively clear about the MWI element or not in their last two films because things like Khan are inescapably, irrefutably different than in the prime universe. There is simply no way to ignore Khan having been a Sikh in the original series and follow-up film as opposed to his being a Lily-White Brit in the newer incarnation, for example.

Dec 15, 2014 16:38:29 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Nothing in the movie suggests that the black hole was any other form of time travel, nor does it suggest that the prime universe still exists.

That's because Orci refused to commit to MWI so he could have his cake and eat it too, so it would have to be inferred by also taking into account objective, clear-cut differences between the prime universe and this new(er) continuity, which was also why he and Kurtzman decided to resort to it as a story device. Current theory also suggests and allows for the possibility that black holes are doorways to other universes, so it's not exactly grasping at straws. It has a real basis in current scientific theory and understanding.