Wonder Woman 1984

[CRAMBAM]

Ok, so some thoughts about WW84.

Again, anyone is welcome to join should they ever stumble across this board.

It's no secret how much I hate wokeness and PC Hollywood. A perfect example is Supergirl, which cares more about checking woke boxes than entertaining. Ironically, I find that show to be one of the most sexist and racist shows out there. Any time someone gets race switched, that's basically saying that the person of color can't create a good character without some white charity. Supergirl also butchered Superman, using him as a beta male to make Superman strong. Ironically, that makes her weak.

If a man has to be written weakly to make a woman look strong, it has the opposite effect. There is no shame or issue with Superman being the stronger hero. It doesn't take away from Supergirl at all if she is strong in her own right.

And THAT is why I enjoyed the first Wonder Woman so much.

Wonder Woman wasn't great because she's a woman. She's a woman who is just great.

They don't need girl power moments because they come natural. Her gender is not that important to her heroism and that makes her the strongest woman of all.

Steve Trevor is not a weak male. He is not some beta male/gentleman in distress. He is every bit the hero Wonder Woman is, despite the fact that we all know she could kick his ass if they ever fought. Easily. He would be no match for her physically, yet his heart absolutely is as strong.

And by writing him that way, they made Wonder Woman that much stronger.

In Justice League, there was a scene where Superman was first revived and wasn't himself. He fought the whole Justice League including Wonder Woman, and in the short fight, it appeared that not even Wonder Woman was a match for Superman.

So what?

It didn't take one thing away from Wonder Woman.

It showed security on the part of the writers.

If you notice on Supergirl, she really hasn't had any luck in the romance department, and after Mon-El, the writers decided to pivot to the "Supergirl don't need no man" phase.

A real woman can be strong and still feel love. Wonder Woman allowed herself to feel for Steve and it was amazing. She was more rounded.

She represents what true equality should be. It was refreshing to see, especially compared to Supergirl.

So it kind of sucks that I wasn't too thrilled with the second movie.

First the good--

The opening scene was incredible. I loved it. I liked the kid who plays young Diana a lot. She was good in the first movie, but I think she was even better in the second movie. I loved the lesson she was taught while still showing the heart of the hero she would become.

I enjoyed the opening scene with Gadot in the mall. Of course, it made little sense that someone like her could stay out of the public eye, but that was a weakness.

I guess the first thing that I think went wrong was setting it in the 1980s. It seems like the only reason to do that was the nostalgia and the ability to poke a little fun at that decade. But ultimately, if the movie was set post-Justice League, it makes no difference.

Gadot was terrific in this movie. When she first got the role, I wasn't thrilled because I thought she was too skinny. But that is my only issue with her. She has the perfect face for the role and I love what she brings to it. She won me over.

Plus, I haven't heard a better suggestion of a woman with more muscle but still attractive enough to make it work. Gadot is well cast.

My only issue with her now is that her accent makes it a bit tough to understand her at times without closed captioning.

Not always, but sometimes.

Chris Pine as Steve Trevor was strong too--again showing that the writers are secure enough in Wonder Woman to allow Steve Trevor to be a hero too.

So unfortunately, the story wasn't so strong.

They had 2 villains and neither of them really did much. Some reviewers likened Maxwell Lord to Trump, but I didn't see that. Anyone who does really has a distorted view of Trump, because Lord was just a character in his own right. But he wasn't that compelling a villain, and I think he would have been better in modern times.

Kristen Wiig was also the wrong person for the role of Cheetah. First, Cheetah is one of most famous WW villains--so why not make her the only villain? In a way, it's a sign of weakness when one villain can't handle being the main antagonist his his/her first appearance.

It means that they either wrote a bad script or didn't have a good cast.

What is the point of Cheetah if we don't see her until the final fight, and it wasn't even that big of a deal?

She looked like a reject from CATS. I think the movie didn't need Maxwell Lord and we should have had a story that dealt with Cheetah's origin in a way that was truer to the comics.

Ultimately, I felt that this movie was a let down. It dragged, it was too long, and the villains were weak.

But Wonder Woman remains the best female superhero out there.

Star Trek V sucked. Star Trek VI was better. Hopefully Wonder Woman III will be more of a return to form.

[TrekBeatTK]

I guess I'm in the minority opinion of the internet, but I liked the movie. Yes, there are some story issues. A problem of shared villains has always existed in superhero sequels. Even the first movie couldn't quite figure out how to fully exploit Dr. Poison as a villain. But I kind of like having two villains if only because for some reason female superheroes ALWAYS have a female villain, and it's nice that WW's films don't just fall into that trope.

The 1980s setting I presume was to help comment on the themes of wishes for excess and prosperity. What I think too many reviewers are missing is the see that obvious theme but miss the real message about truth vs living a lie. One thing I liked about the '80s setting is the film, especially in the mall sequence, reminded me of an '80s superhero movie. So the setting felt appropriate to the throwback tone, a tone I've really missed where good guys are good and they teach good lessons and are aspirational figures. My issues with the setting are really just continuity. Like, she could fly this whole time?

Yes, the movie didn't quite know how to get to Cheetah or what to do with her once there. That was an issue. As was a question of just exactly how the dreamstone worked. For example, at one point it seems implied that Barbara getting Diana's power is what literally took it away from her, but later it seems that's Diana's own curse for keeping Steve around. So the ideas aren't exactly clear and I expect something got muddied in a rewrite. Also, Max's son makes two wishes that never seem to come true, for some reason. I was annoyed a bit by Kristen Wiig being so... Kristen Wiigy.

Loved the nod to the jet, even if it opens a whole bunch of logistical questions.

I could have done without the entire world being at stake in the third act, but I thought the message really sold and I liked that. I liked how simple and almost didactic it was.

One thing I kind of wish is that when she takes Steve to the air and space exhibits, I wish he could have seen the Enterprise and made some winking comment about it. But maybe the model wasn't on display in 1984.

Anyway, I thought the story was actually pretty good, but the scripting of it was a bit messy. But I had such a good time that it didn't bother me like it does in other films. I mean, The Dark Knight downright angers me with how nonsensical it is, but the same people who are lambasting WW84 will hold that film up as the gold standard.

So I liked it despite its hiccups and I look forward to the third film.

I totally agree about Supergirl. I had to give up early in the second season. Which makes me so mad because I overall liked season one and find Benoist likable in the role, but then they just made all the wrong moves to appeal to wokeness to the point the show called Supergirl stopped even being about Supergirl.

[StarFuryG7]

Dec 28, 2020 21:24:49 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

I guess I'm in the minority opinion of the internet, but I liked the movie.

That's all I really want to know right now because I almost went to see it Monday night, but wasn't sure I was up for a 2.5 hour movie, nor did I want to sit in an empty theater. As it turned out the theater wouldn't have been totally empty, but whatever. I suppose I'll get to going to see it soon.

[CRAMBAM]

This is going to be spoiler heavy, so here's your spoiler warning if you haven't seen the movie.


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I guess my review had a lot of spoilers too, but now that there are people here, might as well give the courtesy.

The thing I love about Wonder Woman is that it's NOT woke. I give them that. She is the best female hero out there because despite the fact that she is absolutely a woman, her gender does NOT define her.

You won't get a pandering moment like the girl power scene in Endgame.

The flaws of this movie are not related to wokeness, and for that alone, I am grateful.

The movie was not a turd, but it's one of those movies that gets worse the more you think about it.

For example, the Dreamstone had the power to create matter out of nothing. It created a big concrete wall. It created nuclear weapons. Why couldn't it give Steve a body?

Why didn't the movie even discuss the fact that Steve's soul essentially stole the life of an innocent man?

There were a bunch of elements to this movie and I think it did too much.

Cheetah could have been cut entirely and it wouldn't have made much difference.

Tighten the story. Make it more about Wonder Woman and Steve reconnecting and the realization of what had to be done.

Or bring Steve back permanently. By doing it this way, they really shouldn't use him again.

Interesting point about female superheroes and female villains. That's a fair point.

But I would have actually left Cheetah out.

Wonder Woman's ability to fly was acquired. They should have covered that.

But did she fly in Justice League? If not, they should have set the movie after Justice League.

Great point about the Enterprise--I actually was wondering if we would have seen that too. Would have been a good easter egg.

I mean, The Dark Knight downright angers me with how nonsensical it is, but the same people who are lambasting WW84 will hold that film up as the gold standard.

So I liked it despite its hiccups and I look forward to the third film.

I totally agree about Supergirl. I had to give up early in the second season. Which makes me so mad because I overall liked season one and find Benoist likable in the role, but then they just made all the wrong moves to appeal to wokeness to the point the show called Supergirl stopped even being about Supergirl.

I'm in a minority in that I think The Dark Knight is overrated. I didn't DISLIKE the Nolan films, but all of them are overrated. I don't want Batman in the real world. I want the Batman that is Batman.

I'm looking forward to the third Wonder Woman too. I've said it before--Star Trek V sucked. TMP sucked. But TWOK and ST6 were very good movies. If you have the right characters, and they are well developed and written well, then the follow up movie can bounce back.

This movie wasn't great, but it wasn't offensive bad like Man of Steel or Batman v. Superman.

As for Supergirl, it started to change when Trump won. Then it became about a bunch of butt hurt writers showing how woke they are and checking boxes.

They brought us the weakest Superman of all time. My hope is that the new show featuring him might actually make him less of a wimp.

His whole existence was to be submissive and weak compared to Supergirl. They even once had him say, "the world doesn't need a Superman when it has a Supergirl."

It was sickening.

[StarFuryG7]

Hmmm...I didn't hate the new WW flick, but I find myself seeing it from both sides on this one. I don't know if you guys are familiar with Gary and his Nerdrotic Channel on YouTube, but I noticed early on Tuesday that he really panned it. I watched the first few non-spoilery minutes of his trashing the hell out of it, and he may be right. The film does have some problems, but at the same time, maybe people have also come to expect too much out of comic book superhero movies. Must they all be the same? For a few years there, between the Marvel films and the Justice League films, they had all become basically the same. You would have these huge good versus evil showdowns that were the excuse for special effects galore as the climax, and of course, good would win, or would eke out a victory if you knew there was an intended sequel, and it was all basically the same. Here, however, they actually tried something different. They made a movie where instead of villains you had a couple of flawed people who weren't happy with their lives and who they were as people, and in the case of one of them, had real, genuine pain in his past that motivated him to act in such a way to try and become successful regardless of what he had to do to try and get there. In the other case you had the timid, mousy, though good hearted person that was clumsy, would trip over herself, and who no one every really noticed or cared about - she just happened to be there, and that was how she had to go through life. In both cases these people ended up seeing a way out and reached for it. It wasn't that they were bad people per se. They just wanted to be something other than who they were --something better, or so they thought. I thought both Pedro Pascal and Kristen Wiig both did good jobs with the material they had to work with. In the case of Pascal, his character is actually rounded out and is given closure. Wiig's character is just left as an open question mark. Yeah, the movie was too long and could have been cut down by a good twenty minutes or a half an hour. That would have tightened it up at least, but then again that might have also made some of its inherent problems seem bigger once all was said and done.

I didn't hate it, but I did enjoy it for what it was. Yeah, it was over-the-top, but then again it was a comic book superhero movie, so it gets a pass for that very reason that other films wouldn't be allowed.

I'll just leave it there for now.

But this antipathy toward 'The Dark Knight' ...frankly I'm just not getting it because to me that was almost the perfect comic book superhero film. It's possibly the best I've ever seen.

Dec 28, 2020 21:24:49 GMT -5 TrekBeatTK said:

I guess I'm in the minority opinion of the internet, but I liked the movie. Yes, there are some story issues. A problem of shared villains has always existed in superhero sequels. Even the first movie couldn't quite figure out how to fully exploit Dr. Poison as a villain. But I kind of like having two villains if only because for some reason female superheroes ALWAYS have a female villain, and it's nice that WW's films don't just fall into that trope.

The 1980s setting I presume was to help comment on the themes of wishes for excess and prosperity. What I think too many reviewers are missing is the see that obvious theme but miss the real message about truth vs living a lie. One thing I liked about the '80s setting is the film, especially in the mall sequence, reminded me of an '80s superhero movie. So the setting felt appropriate to the throwback tone, a tone I've really missed where good guys are good and they teach good lessons and are aspirational figures. My issues with the setting are really just continuity. Like, she could fly this whole time?

Yes, the movie didn't quite know how to get to Cheetah or what to do with her once there. That was an issue. As was a question of just exactly how the dreamstone worked. For example, at one point it seems implied that Barbara getting Diana's power is what literally took it away from her, but later it seems that's Diana's own curse for keeping Steve around. So the ideas aren't exactly clear and I expect something got muddied in a rewrite. Also, Max's son makes two wishes that never seem to come true, for some reason. I was annoyed a bit by Kristen Wiig being so... Kristen Wiigy.

Loved the nod to the jet, even if it opens a whole bunch of logistical questions.

I could have done without the entire world being at stake in the third act, but I thought the message really sold and I liked that. I liked how simple and almost didactic it was.

One thing I kind of wish is that when she takes Steve to the air and space exhibits, I wish he could have seen the Enterprise and made some winking comment about it. But maybe the model wasn't on display in 1984.

Anyway, I thought the story was actually pretty good, but the scripting of it was a bit messy. But I had such a good time that it didn't bother me like it does in other films. I mean, The Dark Knight downright angers me with how nonsensical it is, but the same people who are lambasting WW84 will hold that film up as the gold standard.

So I liked it despite its hiccups and I look forward to the third film.

I totally agree about Supergirl. I had to give up early in the second season. Which makes me so mad because I overall liked season one and find Benoist likable in the role, but then they just made all the wrong moves to appeal to wokeness to the point the show called Supergirl stopped even being about Supergirl.

[TrekBeatTK]

"But this antipathy toward 'The Dark Knight' ...frankly I'm just not getting it because to me that was almost the perfect comic book superhero film. It's possibly the best I've ever seen."

I see this opinion a lot, but I don't share it. I like The Dark Knight, but not nearly as much as everyone else. I find it a mediocre crime thriller buoyed by a phenomenal performance. I like Batman Begins sooo much more, both as a movie and a Batman movie. I miss the Gotham that didn't just look like Chicago. The "but it's so realistic!" thing falls on its face when you consider Two-Face's injuries are just an infection waiting to happen. He didn't have eyelids. They could have defeated him with a handful of dirt to his face. But the biggest issue is you have to buy the Joker as this mastermind that had every move set up three steps ahead and when you really think about that, it falls apart. Fans too often want to take him at his word when he says he doesn't have a plan. He absolutely does. Maybe he doesn't have an ultimate objective, but he certainly has a plan. Likewise, the "I'm an agent of chaos" thing falls on its face. Ultimately, the movie only works at all if you take every single thing Joker says as a lie. But the actions don't ultimately follow and you can't really track the plot because it's just a series of set pieces. Batman is the world's greatest detective, which makes this essentially a detective thriller. If at the end of the detective story I don't know how we got from A to C, then I don't enjoy it. Batman Begins by contrast has a clear plot that fits together.

Like I say, I like the movie and Ledger is great, but I don't think it's the best Nolan Batman, let alone best superhero film ever. I don't think it was the best superhero film of that summer!

[CRAMBAM]

I don't know if the problem was so much that it wasn't good v. evil enough. It was execution.

Cheetah was badly wasted in this movie. She also seemed like a ripoff of Selina in Batman Returns.

The first movie was amazing. I don't think all superhero films are exactly alike, but there is a certain thing that works and should be present in all of them. Our hero must be the hero. She/He must always be likeable and in the right. I think that the villain should be clearly evil. They should not make the villain a parallel to whatever Republican is in charge. Politics should stay out of it.

The villain does not have to be powerful physically if he is sadistic enough and makes up for lack of power with brilliance. See Lex Luthor.

A movie must not drag.

As for the Dark Knight, they went in a direction that I didn't really like. I don't want Batman if he were in the real world. That's not the kind of realism I am looking for especially since if Batman or the Joker existed in the real world, they would both be locked up. The Joker would NOT be able to escape prison every time he is put there. Even if he did one time, he would be under such maximum security that no one would get to him. And Batman, no matter how smart, no matter how rich, no matter his intentions, would be caught and in a big time cell as well.