Relics

[CRAMBAM]

I'm currently working my way through the audio version of Relics.

It's interesting how more people wouldn't have known who Scotty was. Historically, Geordi should have been worshiping the ground he walked on. He should have known exactly who Scotty was.

While the captain usually gets all the glory, in the case of Kirk's crew, they ALL should have been quite famous.

In Kirk's case, the fame, at least according to books, started right after the VGer incident.

I know that's not canon, but it does make sense given that Kirk and crew saved the Earth.

Granted, in that case, I can see only the captain getting the fame since there were 400 or so people on the ship.

But when it came to the Probe in STIV, Kirk and crew saved the world again, and this time, there were only 7 of them involved.

If seven people saved Earth from certain destruction, they'd be household names, especially if one of them had already been quite famous for doing the exact same thing before.

Without Scotty's work, they could never have transported the whales. Even if you ignore that he was the most brilliant engineer of his day, the fact that he was so involved in saving Earth should have made him recognizable on site, just as easily as we would recognize FDR or Einstein today.

[captainbasil]

I would love to hear an audio version of this story. As much as I love TNG this episode seemed awkward and badly written. And you're absolutely right. Geordi should have worshiped Scotty. I love the Trek audio series Outpost and I just started Excelsior and like that too.

[TrekBeatTK]

In Geordi's defense, he didn't start out as an engineer, and we don't know if it was always a passion for him. He used to be helmsman.

Frankly, the one character who probably would have worshipped Scotty is the one who wasn't on board anymore: Wesley Crusher.

-TK

[CRAMBAM]

But you have to figure--if the Enterprise is supposed to be the flagship, it would likely have Starfleet's best and brightest as its senior officers. For Geordi to be the chief engineer, he would have to be very qualified, and from what I remember from the show, he was.

To be that qualified, he would have had to study engineering, and there was no one better at starship engineering, especially on the fly, than Scotty.

One problem I feel that more modern Trek writers have had is that they tend to forget that Scotty was utterly brilliant and at the top of his game.

He would have been someone that Geordi would have studied as a part of Engineering 101.

I've actually been going through some of my audio files recently. I started with FEDERATION, then KOBAYSHI MARU, and currently, RELICS.

The cool part about Relics is that it's read by Doohan, so he does Scotty as Scotty. You can't beat that.

Given that the audio is more than twice as long, you get more too.

I think Relics was a good idea, and it wasn't as bad as it could have been, but I think some of the themes were all wrong. I get the idea of doing a story on an old man feeling useless, but I don't feel it would have been in character for Scotty to act like he did, and they really made Geordi into a prick.

In fact, I think most of them were pricks to Scotty except Picard, who seemed to be the only one to take a moment and reach out to the man.

And as for Scotty himself, he's not a stupid man, nor is he one to want to retire. This is a guy who was so passionate about engineering that he read technical journals to relax. That was his idea of FUN.

Scotty is the type of guy that would seize the opportunity to catch up on all the advances in the last 75 years, and then make a few modifications and improvements of his own.

Doohan does the voices pretty well, except Data.

[Mel]

What you mean by audio version? I've listened to books on tape, but if that was done with episodes, it's news to me. Where do you find them?

I remember how startled I was when you first told me (on AOL) that the Enterprise under Kirk was not the flagship of the Federation. In all my years of watching the show (and I started when it debuted) that never occurred to me. I forgot; was the Enterprise under Picard the flagship?

I never got the impression that Kirk's missions were made known to the general public. In ST4, yes, seven of them saved the world, but would the world know that? They're in the military. Why would their exploits, even ones where they saved Earth, become public knowledge? That was never my take on the series or the movies.

[CRAMBAM]

Relics, because of its prominence, was made into a novel. The novel, because it was Relics, was made into an audio book. The book was read by James Doohan with an intro and outro by LeVar Burton. Doohan did all the voices. What's great about Doohan reading books is that when there's a Scotty scene, he does the Scotty voice.

The Enterprise under Kirk was one of 12 ships, and I would assume they were all equal. Picard's Enterprise was definitely the flagship, probably because the name was made so prominent by Kirk that there had to be an Enterprise. After all, as far as we know, Kirk's ship was the first ship to be rebuilt with the A at the end.

As for personal fame, I would think that first contacts would certainly bring a captain fame, even when they happen a lot. Kirk's exploring the final frontier, and doing a great job. I'm sure the media of the day would pounce on that.

But even if the 5 year mission itself didn't get Kirk fame, the V-Ger incident absolutely would have, given that he saved EARTH.

As the captain, Kirk would get most of the glory, and the rest of the crew would likely not get the same level of fame.

But when it comes to the Kirk's main crew, things would have had to change with the Probe in ST4.

At THAT point, it was clear that their trial was very public, and many different species were paying attention. Starfleet was quite aware and appreciated that these 7 people saved the lives of billions, and had no problem making a public spectacle of their acquittal. Scotty was right there in all of that, and he would have been a household name.

And if someone saves the world, they would be remembered even 75 years later.

[Mel]

...with the Probe in ST4. At THAT point, it was clear that their trial was very public, and many different species were paying attention. Starfleet was quite aware and appreciated that these 7 people saved the lives of billions, and had no problem making a public spectacle of their acquittal.

To me it wasn't clear that the trial was very public. Didn't it begin as a military trial? I thought those viewing the trial had a right to see it, as members of Starfleet, and/or as involved parties, witnesses, and such. I never thought the public was watching the trial, not even the part where it's clear that Kirk and crew's interference had saved Earth, yet again.

Anyone else reading this? Are you under the impression that Kirk and crew's exploits were publicly known during his lifetime? That idea never occurred to me, ever.

Maybe I missed clues or even really big plots points that indicated that their adventures are common knowledge among civilians.

[TrekBeatTK]

Well, there was certainly a lot of media attention to Kirk at the Enterprise-B's launch. I do think by the time of the movie era there had been a certain mystique drummed up about Kirk and the Enterprise. Otherwise, it is unlikely they'd have named a new ship the Enterprise-A. And remember that in STV, the Admiral made a point of sending Kirk and the Enterprise even though there were other ships in the quadrant because "I need Jim Kirk."

Now, this does not speak to Scotty's fame, which is really the heart of the issue. But there were at least stories of Kirk and crew probably even in history classes in NextGen's era. Remember that Riker new in Generations the mission that Jim Kirk was killed, and he also remembered reading about someone taking a shower clothed in "Naked Now". That's an obscure detail from something Kirk's ship encountered, and it was apparently public record and something that Riker had access to.

I think Kirk definitely would have had widespread fame, as well as Spock (though he was still alive at the time). I'm not sure how much Scotty's fame would have gone. I agree that what attention he would have gained would be in engineering circles primarily. I'm still unconvinced though that his exploits would have turned up in Engineering 101. That's probably more warp theory and such, so more Zefram Cochrane (which Geordid did know). Then again, Geordi may have known all of this and Scotty may have been a living legend. Geordi may even have known all the stories Scotty was telling already and was getting impatient on that level.

I would disagree with Cram's assertion that Scotty would never have retired. He did seem to be going that way in TUC. But ultimately his experience in "Relics" revived whatever was still in him not to retire fully just yet.

-TK

[CRAMBAM]

Definitely true about Kirk and Spock. They were Butch and Sundance. Lone Ranger and Tonto. Batman and Robin.

Plus, Spock is the son of a high profiled diplomat and the first Vulcan in Starfleet. Plus, he came back from the dead. He was quite famous on Vulcan and throughout the Federation.

I think where Scotty's fame would have truly taken off would have been after the Probe. That situation alone would have made him incredibly famous.

Scotty was the chief engineer on the most celebrated ship under its most famous captain. The Kirk stories would be legend, and by trickle down, all the miracles Scotty did would have got him notoriety.

The man was utterly brilliant.

Even taking that away, his contributions to engineering should have put him over the top. Maybe not Zephram Cochrane level, but famous--ESPECIALLY in engineering circles.

Scotty would be the poster boy for how you need to think fast and adapt on a starship.

I'd have to watch TUC again, but even in TUC, the man was chilling out reading TECHNICAL JOURNALS. This was his passion.

[Mel]

Well, there was certainly a lot of media attention to Kirk at the Enterprise-B's launch.

That's a good point. But once again, I had assumed the press was there to cover the military event of the launching of the Enterprise B, and maybe for the military history books (probably all on computers).

And remember that in STV, the Admiral made a point of sending Kirk and the Enterprise even though there were other ships in the quadrant because "I need Jim Kirk."

I don't remember an admiral, but there may have been one. Do you mean a Starfleet admiral? He would have access to Kirk and crew's exploits, not to mention Kirk was once an Admiral himself. That doesn't mean the information was public knowledge.

Now, this does not speak to Scotty's fame, which is really the heart of the issue.

Well, I've strayed from the heart of the issue to whether their exploits were public knowledge. I just don't think so. I'm not convinced, yet, anyway. But again, that thought never once entered my mind when watching any of TOS or the movies.

But there were at least stories of Kirk and crew probably even in history classes in NextGen's era. Remember that Riker new in Generations the mission that Jim Kirk was killed, and he also remembered reading about someone taking a shower clothed in "Naked Now". That's an obscure detail from something Kirk's ship encountered, and it was apparently public record and something that Riker had access to.

I would think an obscure detail from Kirk's ship would more likely be found in the military archives, rather than in a public record.

I think Kirk definitely would have had widespread fame, as well as Spock (though he was still alive at the time). I'm not sure how much Scotty's fame would have gone. I agree that what attention he would have gained would be in engineering circles primarily.

It's been almost 50 years since John F. Kennedy was assassinated. That represents a few generations at least. Many people now don't know who he was, beyond being a president who was killed, and Kennedy was a public figure. It's been almost 70 years since the end of World War II. How well does the general public remember those military heroes? Do they only recall the ones who went into public service after the military, for instance, Eisenhower?

Audie Murphy, the most decorated American hero of WWII, became an actor. Does the public now know him -- *if* they know him -- as a hero, or as an actor? Does his name even ring a bell with the general public? What about the famous line, "... a day that will live in infamy..." Does today's general public know what that refers to? I kind of doubt it!

I'm not talking about history buffs. I'm talking about the general public. It's that kind of general public that Cram is certain is well acquainted with Kirk and his crew, during Kirk's lifetime, and decades afterward. I just don't agree.

[CRAMBAM]

Yeah, but of all the real figures you mention, how many of them saved the entire planet Earth from certain destruction from aliens?

On multiple occasions?

100 years from now, I think people will know that Neil Armstrong was the first person to walk on the moon.

I don't think people have forgotten JFK's assassination so fast. People know all about Lincoln's assassination.

Now true, Kirk and crew weren't politicians. Far from it, but in a world where humanity turns to the stars, Kirk was an example of the best of the best.

I do think the media in Generations was a mainstream media. Starfleet is likely a very big deal. People like Kirk would be so heroic they would be used as recruiting tools. Starfleet needs public heroes.

Kirk wouldn't like that, but his adventures were very heroic. But if for one adventure only, the general public would indeed know about the exploits of a man who saved the planet. As far as Scotty is concerned, it would seem that by being a major part of the bringing back the whales, he would become famous as well.

Kirk would be the main hero and have the most fame. Spock's fame might even eclipse Kirk's--at least on Vulcan. But Scotty would not be unknown.

More important--within the confines of Starfleet, Kirk's adventures would be standard study, not just because they are cool, but because Kirk did things and acted in certain ways that all starfleet officers should emulate. His tactics would be required reading.

As for Scotty, he was as brilliant an engineer as Kirk was a captain. People tend to underestimate how good he was, because they think of him banging his head. Of all people, GEORDI should have known who he was. But all of them should have just based on history.

[Mel]

100 years from now, I think people will know that Neil Armstrong was the first person to walk on the moon.

"People." How many people? The article quoted below was written in 1999.

Neil Armstrong has been very reclusive in the 30 years since his historic first step on the surface of the moon. How well is he remembered? Not nearly as well as one might think for someone who may go down in history on the same page as Christopher Columbus. In the Gallup poll conducted last Tuesday and Wednesday nights, only 50% of the public correctly named Armstrong as the first person to walk on the moon. The second most prevalent guess was John Glenn, named by 13%, followed by Alan Shepard (who was the first man into space), and Buzz Aldrin, who was the second man on the moon. About 3% named someone else, while 28% couldn't come up with any name at all.

To play fair, the percentage who correctly identified him is actually up from a poll taken 10 years before, presumably because people learned the fact in school. So if the "general public" is limited to people under 30, you may have a chance, Cram. <g> Of course, this assumes that your assumptions that Kirk's missions were made public knowledge, and possibly even taught in general education, are correct, too.

One assumes that it is young Americans who are least likely to remember Armstrong, since they were not alive at the time of the historic mission. Is this true? No, exactly the opposite is true. Those who are now 18-29 years old, and thus who were not yet born in 1969, are most likely to be able to name Neil Armstrong. The older one gets, the less likely he or she is to name Armstrong, culminating in the fact that only 29% of those 65 and older can name him. It can be assumed that the youngest Americans are most likely to have run across the Armstrong name in their history classes, while older Americans, who may have watched on television, have fading memories when it comes to specifics.

By the way, Armstrong is better known now than he was 10 years ago, when in a similar Gallup poll, only 39% could name him as the first man to walk on the moon.


www.gallup.com/poll/3712/Landing-Man-Moon-Publics-View.aspx

[CRAMBAM]

Ok, so some people are really dumb. That's a failure in education if people don't know Neil Armstrong.

But you mentioned another good name--Christopher Columbus. Famous explorer, over 500 years ago, still known.

Granted, we don't know his engineer, but Columbus and his crew weren't involved in saving the entire planet at a time where there is world wide media.

[TrekBeatTK]

Mar 30, 2012 12:24:07 GMT -5 CRAMBAM said:

Ok, so some people are really dumb. That's a failure in education if people don't know Neil Armstrong.

But you mentioned another good name--Christopher Columbus. Famous explorer, over 500 years ago, still known.

Granted, we don't know his engineer, but Columbus and his crew weren't involved in saving the entire planet at a time where there is world wide media.

Fair enough, but how many average Americans know the 3rd guy on the Apollo 11 mission? Most know Armstrong and Aldrin, but what about the other guy?

-TK

[CRAMBAM]

No, the average American would not know the third guy on the Apollo mission. But 2 rebuttals to that:

1. The third guy on the Apollo mission did not save the world from certain destruction by travelling back in time and grabbing some whales.

2. I would be willing to bet that the average ASTRONAUT knows all three guys.

[TrekBeatTK]

Here's another odd thing to consider:

The only reason they were there to save the whales was that they were returning form exile after stealing Federation property and getting it destroyed, further complicating relations with the Klingons.

I wonder if there were people who just would not accept them as heroes for those reasons. The "it doesn't excuse what they did" argument. Like there are people who will never see a Roman Polanski movie because of the statutory rape thing.

I'd also say that Scotty himself built the tank and did the transporting, but how much of that became part of the popular story? I bet Kirk focused on how he himself swam down to open that hatch and all. Maybe Scotty would have more notoriety than Chekov for this incident, but maybe he played it modestly. Modesty seems to be a part of his whole "miracle worker" mystique. If everyone goes around EXPECTING the impossible, he can't maintain it. So maybe Scotty purposely downplayed his role in this incident.

[CRAMBAM]

One would have to wonder just how much they kept that under wraps.

An investigation would show these officers were the best at what they did, and their service to Starfleet's mission was exceptional.

So you would have to wonder if that was public at all.

But it was public, then the question becomes WHY would these great heroes do what they did?

It would have to come out that they did so because they found out a way to revive their friend. Or maybe it would be kept dead secret due to the classified Genesis project.

The Klingons are the enemy. If for example, a heroic soldier somehow saves America from being destroyed, would it make that guy less of a hero because he pissed off the Chinese in the process?

And let's not forget WHY the Klingons were pissed. They breached the treaty to invade the Federation, killed Federation citizens, and then got what was coming to them by Kirk.

Had the Klingons not been on Genesis, wouldn't the mission have gone much smoother?

This is hardly Roman Polanski.

I would think ALL seven of them would have played their parts down. But it's clear that Starfleet, by pardoning them, clearly wanted these people to be heroes, knew they were heroes, and covered them as heroes.

[TrekBeatTK]

Certainly Starfleet pardoned them. And likely most of the population would be understanding of their actions, should the reasons have gotten out.

However, this is not to say there wouldn't still perhaps be a contingent of common people who wouldn't excuse the actions, or who would be ticked at Starfleet for what they did. I'm sure the reactions of one room full of people doesn't reflect the opinions of everybody. I mean, Ford pardoned Nixon but that doesn't mean everyone was fine with it.

Yes, the Klingons were in violation of treaty and such, as Sarek rightly pointed out. But keep in mind also had Kirk and company NOT gone to Genesis, what would have happened? Kruge likely would have still destroyed Grissom and tried to figure out the secret of Genesis. But that would go nowhere, since Genesis was unstable. At worst, Starfleet would learn of the Klingon incursions and fight back accordingly, knowing they were unprovoked. But Kirk's involvement, though a matter of self-preservation, gave the Klingons ammunition to point the finger at STARFLEET for killing Klingons, theft of Klingon property and taking a prisoner, which one can argue is a fate worse than death for a Klingon. The Klingons were still wrong in their actions, I just think that the Enterprise involvement muddied the diplomatic waters in a way they arguably wouldn't have been.

I think it possible that some out there would think it unreasonable that no disciplinary action at all was taken against Kirk for stealing and destroying Federation property, as well as sabotaging another vessel. All of these charges were dropped. Regardless of whether Kirk's punishment for insubordination (a simple demotion) was lenient, all other charges weren't even given lenient sentences. I think there are some out there who would be annoyed by this. Probably not a majority. But it's fun to overthink these kinds of things every now and then.

[CRAMBAM]

I don't know what the general populace would know about the situation. I would think the Klingons would be worldwide unpopular. Kirk would have already been a major hero, so this is a case of Superman saving the world again.

One wonders how much of that finale was televised if any.

Ford pardoned Nixon, but Nixon didn't save the world. Plus, I don't know if Kirk's "crime" would even be well known. It would be hard to do that because to do so would involve classified info.

To the world, maybe they felt Kirk was not guilty or whatever happened, was no big deal. For this purpose, Kirk was the big fish, and it was also quite clear that Kirk's demotion was really nothing of the sort. That demotion was a reward.

Genesis was unstable, but it was only unstable for the purpose it was designed to accomplish.

As a WEAPON, Genesis would kick ass.

One missile and you decimate a planet.

So if the Klingons had Genesis, they would be ready for war.

As for the Klingons themselves, they have NO complaint. It would be like the Japanese complaining about the soldiers they lost in the Pearl Harbor attack.

No one on Earth would give a damn about Kruge.

If anything, Kirk's actions might have been viewed as a sign of strength.

Agreed about overthinking.

I feel that Earth and the Federation was quite united. That was GR's intent.

Either way, good or bad, right or wrong, Kirk and his crew should have been quite famous.

And let's face it, Kirk himself would have been famous after the VGer incident.

So imagine a guy saving the world and becoming a hero, and then about 15 years later, he does it again.